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Lloyd 
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Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:13 pm
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I guess it's a good thing I don't play competitively then. :pikachu:


Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:34 pm
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Let's talk about MU's. I don't know where to start though

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Mon May 30, 2016 2:49 pm
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Lloyd has one of the best MU spreads in the game, making him the 5th best character.
The only MUs you should avoid as Lloyd are Goku, MK, ZSS, Tails and DK. Especially DK. I hate that MU.

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:52 am
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Wait, why Goku? That doesn't seem like a matchup that would give Lloyd all that much trouble.

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:33 am
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Savio wrote:
Wait, why Goku? That doesn't seem like a matchup that would give Lloyd all that much trouble.

You'd be surprised. Goku actually does pretty well in neutral against Lloyd thanks to his good approach options and aerial Ki blast. Goku is dominant in the punish game thanks to his combo game, insane killpower, and heavy weight which makes it very hard for Lloyd to get the kill sometimes. Even worse is that Goku's recovery can provide great distance while Lloyd's lacks good distance while he's lighter than the majority of the cast. (This one is coming from experience. Damn you, Mirwaiss.) In terms of edgeguarding, Goku can mixup his recovery game and it can be difficult to edgeguard him because of this. Lloyd's is more linear and easier to edgeguard due to this. Goku's edgeguard options have more knockback than Lloyd's (For example: KK dair) so it's easier to knock the opponent off, but Lloyd's edgeguard options like Sonic thrust last a long time and have great priority so he can still put up a fight. I'm sure I f*** on some things, but oh well. lol

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:03 pm
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I'm confused. What good approach options does Goku have against Lloyd? Everything that comes to mind gets stuffed by one or all of Nair, Fair, Uair and Utilt. I can't think of a single situation in neutral where Goku wins on the merits of being a better character rather than being controlled by a better player. Is the argument that Goku only needs four openings to win a match, whereas Lloyd might need two or three a stock?

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:34 pm
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Savio wrote:
I'm confused. What good approach options does Goku have against Lloyd? Everything that comes to mind gets stuffed by one or all of Nair, Fair, Uair and Utilt. I can't think of a single situation in neutral where Goku wins on the merits of being a better character rather than being controlled by a better player. Is the argument that Goku only needs four openings to win a match, whereas Lloyd might need two or three a stock?

Same here, I fight and play Lloyd. I also main Goku and I would say Lloyd is probably one of his hardest mu if not his hardest.

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:17 pm
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So when are lloyds gonna start using the sliding UpB for movement?

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:26 pm
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Basically Goku's options in neutral outprioritize (according to Chaos) and outspeed Lloyd's. Goku can also make use of his float to deal with grave blade which can be very useful in the neutral.

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:22 pm
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Ok, that's where I'm lost. I cannot think of a single move in Goku's arsenal that beats, say, Lloyd's Utilt. Dsmash, maybe? I'm not sure about that one. But even if it did, somehow I don't feel that running up and Dsmashing on the assumption that Lloyd will Utilt instead of using one of the miriad of other options at his disposal that beat Dsmash is the world's most solid gameplan. With what move(s), specifically, does Goku dominate the neutral?

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Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:59 pm
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KK in general has a lot of knockback, which makes it near impossible for Lloyd to recover.
Goku's projectile game is also pretty decent. His projectiles outprioritise demon fang.
Float makes Lloyd's down b useless + adds to Goku's already amazing combo game.

Goku destroys Lloyd. Only chance for a Lloyd to win in a competitive environment is if he manages to get first stock. Lloyd has no stage where he can take advantage either since Goku performs well on both flat and platform heavy stages.

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Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:01 am
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Suli Hyuga wrote:
KK in general has a lot of knockback, which makes it near impossible for Lloyd to recover.
Goku's projectile game is also pretty decent. His projectiles outprioritise demon fang.
Float makes Lloyd's down b useless + adds to Goku's already amazing combo game.

Goku destroys Lloyd. Only chance for a Lloyd to win in a competitive environment is if he manages to get first stock. Lloyd has no stage where he can take advantage either since Goku performs well on both flat and platform heavy stages.

Wait doesn't demon fang go under ki blast?

Also doesn't Lloyd out range Goku and wouldn't he win on platform heavy stages?

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Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:47 am
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Suli Hyuga wrote:
KK in general has a lot of knockback, which makes it near impossible for Lloyd to recover.
Goku's projectile game is also pretty decent. His projectiles outprioritise demon fang.
Float makes Lloyd's down b useless + adds to Goku's already amazing combo game.

Goku destroys Lloyd. Only chance for a Lloyd to win in a competitive environment is if he manages to get first stock. Lloyd has no stage where he can take advantage either since Goku performs well on both flat and platform heavy stages.
What situation is leading to Goku being able to enter Kiao-Ken? As far as I can tell, if Goku manages to go Kiao-Ken, then up to that point he was the better player, not the better character.
Ok, but doesn't every Lloyd aerial beat Ki Blasts? Fangs go under grounded Ki Blasts, as Zero mentioned, but regardless, Lloyd is never forced to play Goku's projectile game. Aerial Ki blasts always come from a specific cone area that Lloyd handles readily.
Float does not make Grave Blade useless, only more situational than it might be against other characters. Goku still isn't allowed to whiff any grounded moves or land unsafely, and landing is something that he will have to do a whole lot of if he's spending the majority of his time in the air. Not only that, but if a floating Goku is knocked off-stage, Lloyd's edgeguarding job is made that much easier by having already robbed Goku of one of his most precious resources.

I still don't understand how Goku beats Lloyd from what has been said, much less destroys him. Sure, he has an amazing combo game, but how is he landing the initial hit? Sure, Kiao-Ken Goku is the best character in the game, but the Goku player always has to start the match as regular Goku, and Lloyd spanks that character thouroughly.

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Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:26 am
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People get initial hits off of mistakes, reads, mistimings, what have you. You don't need to have 100% guaranteed neutral hits to do well in a matchup, especially in the tricky business of swords. For example, in Melee Puff doesn't really have anything that can beat Marth's aerials directly, but because of her aerial movement she can evade and find hits that she needs. Same thing with Lloyd.

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Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:34 pm
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DK vs Lloyd sounds like one of the most annoying matchups ever for Lloyd

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Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:45 pm
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