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Matchups Discussion Thread. 
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Phoenix Wright wrote:
I think you might be a little heavy handed on the 65-35s. That's like the saying the matchup is almost unwinnable (these are hard counters). If that's how they are then that's all fine (I don't suggest changes), I just want to make sure that you know what the numbers mean. At last 60-40 is doable (just quite difficult).


Hmm, I see, thank you for pointing that out. Didn't know specifically what each ratio meant. I think I'll keep the Kirby one, but I might change the others.


Mon May 11, 2015 6:01 pm
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Gosick wrote:
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uber > ou > uu > ru > nu > pu
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ZSS is Zangoose since she has VERY good attack power and speed and decent defense lol, Lloyd is Seviper since he has that downb and other projectiles, some pretty strong attacks and decent speed.

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Mon May 11, 2015 9:53 pm
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Here's part 2 of my Peach MU guide:

vs Captain Falcon- 60:40. While Falcon has some good combos on Peach and a speed advantage, Peach can combo and edgeguard Falcon quite well. Falcon does not have very good options to deal will turnips but can KO her early with Fair and his smash attacks. Additionally, Peach’s horizontally-oriented recovery makes it hard for her to avoid jumping over a combo leading into an offstage Dair. Overall, Peach wins the neutral, the both combo each other well, but Peach’s edgeguarding wins it for her. Peach's Nair also beats out CF's aerial game if thrown out first.

vs Pikachu- 35:65. Pikachu and Peach both have great aerial games. However, Pikachu has a much better ground game than Peach with his speed, Dtilt, and short hop aerial approaches. Both have good edgeguarding options, Pika’s recovery is quite vulnerable to Peach’s Nair or Fair while Pika can use Nair, Dair, or D spec for the kill. Overall, Pika has better offensive and defensive options in neutral but both can punish each other well.

vs Sonic- 45:55. This MU is pretty close. Peach has good combos and neutral options vs Sonic since Sonic lacks a good aerial game besides Bair and aerial Dspec. However, Peach has a tough time countering Sonic’s D-spec and N-spec. Once those moves start up, their speed and priority make it difficult for Peach to counter. Peach doesn’t have the ground speed to avoid them or the time to take to the air for any long length of time. Peach is forced to shield or time and space a Nair or Fair. Sonic has trouble KOing Peach and Peach wins in the air and edgeguarding game for the most part.

vs Peach- 50:50. lol

vs Zelda- 30:70. This MU is downright hard for Peach. Not impossible, but really hard. Zelda’s high priority aerial game matches or even outclasses Peach’s options. She has Din’s Fire to counter a Peach trying to camp with turnips or can reflect them or batter them away with Nair. Zelda’s Bair can KO Peach at extremely early percents (70-80) as well as Fsmash and Usmash. Zelda and Peach can both combo each other decently well and have good follow ups. Zelda is also hard to edgeguard, as she can Up-B to avoid offstage edgeguarding and the end hitbox making it hard for Peach to land an on stage edgeguard.

vs Sheik- 45:55. This MU is also pretty close. Both have good neutral options vs each other, Peach has her turnips and aerial approaches but Sheik has good aerials as well and needles to boot, which cover more range than her turnips and do more damaged fully charged. Sheik’s Fair and Dsmash are good KO moves and Dtilt and Nair combo well. Peach can intercept Sheik's recovery pretty easily if done before her up-b starts. If it starts, however, the ending windbox will blow Peach the eff across the stage lol, making it hard for on stage edgeguarding.

vs Meta Knight- 30:70. If played correctly, MK wins this MU easily. His aerials and tilts outprioritize Peach’s aerial approaches and Peach’s ground game isn’t good enough to counter him in neutral there either. Though Fair will kill early, MK’s aerials can batter away turnips and MK’s speed and multiple jumps will ensure stage and off stage dominance.


Last edited by Sorabotics on Wed May 13, 2015 9:52 am, edited 2 times in total.



Tue May 12, 2015 3:35 pm
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LOL at "Falcon can KO with Fair"

Seriously, though, good stuff. Is Peach-MK really 20:80? I get that it's really bad, but I think 80-20 is reserved for really terrible matchups of a kind that are extremely rare in this game: matchups where one character simply cannot get in (which isn't true because Peach has floats and turnips to pressure MK and get in), matchups where one character can effectively 0-death every stock or close (not a thing here), etc.

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Tue May 12, 2015 5:58 pm
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
LOL at "Falcon can KO with Fair"

Seriously, though, good stuff. Is Peach-MK really 20:80? I get that it's really bad, but I think 80-20 is reserved for really terrible matchups of a kind that are extremely rare in this game: matchups where one character simply cannot get in (which isn't true because Peach has floats and turnips to pressure MK and get in), matchups where one character can effectively 0-death every stock or close (not a thing here), etc.


I mean, I was going more off the tier list on that one. I've only faced one Meta Knight that made it seem like 20:80, though one is sometimes enough. If the MK is super aggressive and precise, Peach has no time to get turnips and has a hard time getting away. However, I haven't really seen that many reallly good MK's, which is disappointing (cmon Meta Knight mains, les go). But I'm willing to talk it down to 35:75 or even 30:70 since that's how I usually feel when playing most MKs. But thanks for the compliments! I'm still goin, and I'll change that ratio.


Tue May 12, 2015 6:06 pm
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No data on the Wario MU?

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Tue May 12, 2015 6:41 pm
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Doof wrote:
No data on the Wario MU?


Not yet, coming in the next couple days! I'm releasing it batch by batch


Tue May 12, 2015 7:18 pm
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You should mention that peach's nair beats all of falcon's moves except knee.
Even uair from below!

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Wed May 13, 2015 12:15 am
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Jammy wrote:
You should mention that peach's nair beats all of falcon's moves except knee.
Even uair from below!


Oh yeah, true enough.


Wed May 13, 2015 9:51 am
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I know, double post, but here is the next part to my Peach MU Guide:

vs Bomberman- 45:55. This MU is extremely close. While Bomberman has stage control with bombs and Peach isn’t fast enough on the ground to punish BBM before he lays them down, Peach can combo him and edgeguard him extremely well. If Peach puts on lots of pressure, BBM will be forced to run to find time to throw bombs and throw out spaced Bairs and Fairs. However, what makes this MU slightly in BBM’s favor is the fact that he has a higher dash speed and good defensive aerials, allowing him to “run and gun” and place power bombs. These power bombs can kills Peach at around 80-85% and the other sizes can combo into other aerials. Peach also can’t go on the platforms as the blast radius of a power bomb reaches through side platforms. Turnips also don’t cover enough distance for Peach to prevent BBM from planting bombs.

vs Black Mage- 45:55. Both characters have good aerials, BM have an advantage with his quick Fair and ranged Dair. Both have the same combo potential on each other, but BM has better kills moves: Fsmash, Usmash, dash attack, and Bthrow. Turnips work quite well in this MU as BM doesn’t have the best options up close besides a N-spec. BM’s meteors make it difficult for Peach to edgeguard BM offstage, but Peach’s float speed allows her to intercept BM after his Teleport.

vs Ness- 60:40. Peach has a pretty decent advantage in this MU. Her aerial game is generally better than Ness, with the exception of Ness’s Fair as his main spacing tool. Ness has trouble dealing with turnips, which can lead into a F-air KO or Nair into a preceding combo. The main thing Peach has to watch out for is PK Fire, which leads into Ness’s combos and main finisher-Bthrow. However, if she can avoid these, or smash DI out of them quick enough, then Peach should win the neutral game. Ness’s recovery is also easily intercepted by Peach, especially if he used his jump already.

vs Jigglypuff- 65:35. I encourage you all to go read my in depth analysis of this MU in my BR app: viewtopic.php?f=91&t=40976

vs Tails- 35:65. This is quite hard for Peach. I know this will change in Beta, but as it stands, a Tails player can easily rack up damage just by using S-spec. Since this leads into Fair, Tails can also keep doing it until Fair will kill, which is late 100’s to be fair. Tails’s speed and solid ground and aerial game make it hard for Peach. Tails has multiple approach options that Peach will struggle to counter or intercept: Nspec, Side-Spec, Fairs, and up close D-specs. Tails also has an easier time KOing Peach, having Usmash, Dsmash, Bair, and offstage Dairs. Tails also has multiple jumps, recovery options and a high priority Up-B, making it hard for Peach to edgeguard him. Peach does have turnips and a good combo game against Tails, however.

vs Yoshi- 55:45. I don’t think this is that bad a MU for Peach. Most of Yoshi’s kill moves, mainly his smash attacks, don’t kill very early, which lets Peach live for a good amount of time. Peach can combo Yoshi very well and can use her float speed to give her the advantage vs Yoshi’s bad dash speed. Even though Peach will have a hard time killing Yoshi early also, Yoshi’s recovery is fairly predictable and Peach can intercept using the full range of Fair and Nair. Yoshi has an ok combo game versus Peach but he does possess high priority aerials and the ability to DJ cancel armor through Peach’s approaches.


Wed May 13, 2015 4:31 pm
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This is good stuff.

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Thu May 14, 2015 3:10 am
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sparty88 wrote:
I was interested in making a thread where we try to determine each character's worst MU. The more input the better. I'll offer:
Black Mage or Wario > DK
ZSS > MK
Sheik or Zelda > Falcon
Mario > Naruto
Fox or Wario > Yoshi
Really campy Naruto > Marth
MK > Fox
Marth > Wario
ZSS > MK??? ZSS vs MK is 40-60 MK > ZSS

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Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:45 pm
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f*** that , MK gets bodied hard on your average stage (He doesn't struggle so much on small stages like Castle Siege or Jungle Hijinx.) And it's borderline unfair on stages with multiple platforms.

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Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:47 pm
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MK's main strengths are edgeguarding, recovery, and disjoints with priority.

ZSS can kill MK with dsmash to stuff, aerials, and fsmash, so recovery is not a huge plus because you're going to die anyway.
ZSS has a recovery that MK has a difficult time edgeguarding: you can Flip Jump to evade aerials and tether recoveries eliminate MK's main strengths in edgeguarding: throwing out high-knockback high-priority moves to interrupt recoveries. ZSS's tether can't be interrupted easily, so this pro isn't really that much of one.
ZSS has plenty of disjointed moves and many of them outrange MK's, so ZSS really has no trouble dealing with neutral either. I fail to see what MK can do that ZSS can't deal with.

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Anyone else think Ichi v Fox is 50:50?

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