The McLeodGaming forums were permanently closed on April 30th, 2020. You are currently viewing a read-only archive.
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu May 14, 2020 4:25 pm



 [ 9 posts ] 
Explanations as to which stages could potentially be legal 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:26 pm
Posts: 571
Location: NC
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: [BANNED]
Currently Playing: SSF2TAS
Stages should only be banned when an element of them is so polarizing that the stage must be avoided at all costs during the striking process. In Melee, Pokefloats was at one point legal, but the optimal strategy to win on pokefloats was to choose fox and time the other player out while spamming lasers from afar. The stage was so polarizing that it was nearly always struck to avoid this outcome. It was banned because of this, not because of a “bad” layout or because it “couldn’t possibly be legal”. The problem with the SSF2 community is that we often ban stages without giving them any thought. Here I am to give each stage a bit of thought.

Now, let's start off by thinking about Fox. Fox can utilize any wall that’s touching the ground to perform one of two infinites: Shine>shdair and Shine>Shine. These work on any character, so let's ban any stage with permanent and/or long lasting walls. The following stages are banned:
    Gangplank Galleon
    Hylian Skies
    Pokemon Colosseum (Hazards on)-1/2 of the time, this stage has at least one long lasting wall.
    Meteo Campaigns
    Crateria
    Phase 8
    Casino Night Zone
    Chaos Shrine
    Twilight Town
    Steel Diver
    Hidden Leaf Villiage
    Mushroom Kingdom
    Peach's Castle
    Hyrule Castle 64
    Temple
    Saffron City 64
    Sector Z
    Fourside
Another concern is walkoffs: Characters can easily be carried to the blastzone by a single combo with the presence of a walkoff. To solve the problem, let's ban any stage with a permanent walkoff. The following stages are banned:
    Mushroom Kingdom III
    Lake of Rage
    Flatzone+
    Devil's Machine
    Desk
    Sky Sanctuary Zone (Hazards on)
    Skull Fortress
    Bomb Factory
    Planet Namek
    World Tournament (Hazards off)
    Mushroom Kingdom II
    Green Hill Zone
*Note: Hueco Mundo isn't on here; I'll talk about it later.
Now, onto banning or deeming legal the reset of the stages!

Battlefield: LEGAL-The platforms benefit swordsmen heavily, such as Marth, Lloyd, and Isaac, but it is in no way polarizing or impossible to beat these characters on this stage, so it’s perfectly legal.

Final Destination: LEGAL-The size of this stage and vertical linearity due to a lack of platforms heavily benefits characters with projectiles, as well as characters with a chaingrab, but in no way is it polarizing or impossible to beat said characters on this stage, ergo Final Destination is perfectly legal.

Metal Cavern: BANNED-This stage being as small as it is gives an advantage to characters with large hitboxes and high knockback moves, like DK. I have lived through the nightmare of fighting DK on Metal Cavern, and it’s not fun. I was continually beaten by someone who doesn’t even main, secondary, or pocket DK, and I only ever won from SDs or well-placed gimps. I predict that whenever Metal Cavern is chosen, anyone can simply choose DK or some other character with large hitboxes and high knockback and win. Because DK, unlike Fox, takes little effort to play at a viable level, this stage would most likely have to struck in every match, so I say this stage should be illegal.

Galaxy Tours: LEGAL-Most people’s problem with this stage is the randomly generated layout and how people might choose this stage expecting to be benefitted by using a certain character or control layout and not get what they hoped for, leading to complaints and johns. Look at FoD and PS in Melee. Those have RNG elements that make choosing them a gamble, yet they’re legal. Sure, a fox might choose PS hoping for Windmill, but if they don’t see Windmill in that match and lose, so be it. This RNG element does not make Galaxy Tours polarizing or unplayable in any way, so In my opinion, this stage should be legal.

Bowser’s Castle:
Hazards on: BANNED-I went in desperately hoping this stage would be legal because of the kickass music. Seriously, Bowser’s Rampage is one of the best songs in the game. The Thwomp deals 21% and will go to one of five spots based off of rng. This is also fine, as with a tell, a player can time a combo to end with the other player falling into the Thwomp. The Thwomp is also a temporary wall, but since it’s temporary and only lasts a few seconds, Fox can’t reliably use it to perform an infinite. The problem with the Thwomp is that there is no tell. This means that it’s just a random obstacle that isn’t beneficial at all in the slightest to players. Bowser’s Castle is most definitely illegal with hazards on.
Hazards off: BANNED-The lava does 6.5% to anyone who touches it and knocks them upwards, allowing for people to use it to extend combos. There’s no overly polarizing aspect of this lava, so it’s not a good reason for the stage to be banned. The left blastzone, on the other hand, is way too close to the stage and warrants it to be banned. Rip Chernabaguette’s great music.

Yoshi’s Island: EHH...-This stage heavily encourages Circle Camping. Banned in Singles, Legal in doubles.

Emerald Cave: BANNED-This stage has a cave inside of it. It’s extremely cramped and polarizing due to how one hit can and will most likely lead to death in the cave.

WarioWare:
Hazards on: BANNED-Getting invincibility or mega mushroom from this is s***. Banned.
Hazards off: EHH...-The size of this stage isn't too polarizing in singles, nor are the blastzones (I checked). There’s nothing polarizing about this stage with hazards off, therefore it shouldn’t be banned. In doubles, on the other hand, the stage is way too small. Banned in Doubles, Legal in Singles.

Jungle Hijinx:
Hazards on: LEGAL-The Barrel is like Randall. You can memorize the times according to the clock and take advantage of it/avoid it, or you could get randomly saved/screwed over by it. Perfectly legal stuff right here.
Hazards off: LEGAL-There’s nothing polarizing about the slope, so it’s perfectly legal.

Clock Town:
Hazards on: BANNED-This stage has stuff that can hurt you without tells as to where they’ll appear long enough to avoid them, so this stage should not be played with hazards on.
Hazards off: LEGAL-This stage heavily benefits Falco, floaties (High blastzones), and characters with projectiles, but nothing about it is polarizing to the point of being unplayable, so it shouldn’t be banned.

Pokemon Colusseum:
Hazards off: LEGAL-This stage is in no way polarizing with hazards off, so it’s legal.

Sand Ocean: BANNED-This stage is way too volatile against characters with a good spike.

Mirror Chamber:
Hazards on: BANNED-The hazards on this stage are mirrors that teleport you to the top and put you in freefall. The problem is: These mirrors don’t have tells for when they’re gonna open. Once again: RNG Hazards without a tell. Banned.
Hazards off: LEGAL-Nothing about this stage is too polarizing. Legal.

Saturn Valley:
Hazards on: BANNED-The pink water heals too quickly. A character with projectiles who camps in the middle would be unstoppable. Camping in the middle for a stock and then timing the other player out would be the optimal strategy for the stage, which is extremely polarizing (See Pokefloats), so it’s banned.
Hazards off: LEGAL-This stage still encourages keeping center stage, but not as heavily, and it is no longer polarizing.

Sky Sanctuary Zone:
Hazards off: LEGAL-Nothing too polarizing about it. It’s perfectly legal.

Lunar Core: BANNED-Too big. Characters with projectiles can camp, since it's hard to kill on the slope on the right. Banned.

Central Highway: BANNED-It starts out too big and becomes too small. DK on Metal Cavern Principle for how small it gets. Banned.

Pac-Maze:
Hazards on: EHH...-Heavily encourages Circle Camping. Banned in singles, allowed in doubles.
Hazards off: EHH...-Heavily encourages Circle Camping. Banned in singles, allowed in doubles.

Tower of Salvation:
Hazards on: BANNED-RNG Hazards without warning. Banned.
Hazards off: LEGAL-Perfectly legal, although it’s bad for characters who normally have good gimping ability.

Dracula’s Castle:
Hazards on: LEGAL-The platforms always move in a set pattern, and the only hazard is the movement of said platforms, so the hazard for this stage is perfectly fine. There’s nothing polarizing about this stage, so it’s perfectly legal.
Hazards off: LEGAL-There’s nothing polarizing about this stage, so it’s perfectly legal.

Nintendo 3DS:
Hazards on: LEGAL-Each hazard on this stage takes away something from your normal arsenal. Pong takes away techchases and rushdown play, but the hazards have clear tells, making it legal; VVVVVV takes away your ground game, but it’s harmless other than that, making it legal; and Discount Mario takes away your general coordination, but the walls and walkoffs don’t last long enough at any given moment for you to take full advantage of, making it legal. None of it is polarizing, as each hazard lasts a very short amount of time and it doesn’t benefit anyone to the point of making it impossible to win. It’s perfectly legal.
Hazards off: LEGAL-Although the ledges are dangerous for characters with a linear recovery, it’s nothing too polarizing, therefore this stage is perfectly legal.

Hueco Mundo: BANNED-The slope actually makes the walkoff's existence perfectly fine, because how are you going to carry someone to to their doom horizontally downwards? The problem now is, a character could easily camp in the middle of the slope and spam, also the ceiling is very low. Banned. (Props to Masky for showing me why it’s illegal!)

Final Valley: BANNED-Holy f*** I love how beautiful this stage is and how nice the music is. Sadly, it’s too big for singles and there's not enough solid ground (compared to the lack of ground) for doubles. Rip.

World Tournament:
Hazards on: BANNED-This stage is way too volatile against characters with a good spike. Banned.

Waiting Room: LEGAL-There’s nothing polarizing about this stage. It’s perfectly legal.

Yoshi’s Story 64:
Hazards on: EHH...-The Shy Guys operate according to the timer and have clear tells, so this stage's hazard is fine. However...
Hazards off: EHH...-The clouds make this stage way too big and polarizing against characters with projectiles. Legal in doubles, banned in singles.

Yoshi’s Story:
Hazards on: LEGAL-The Shy Guys operate according to the timer and have clear tells, so this stage is legal with hazards.
Hazards off: LEGAL-This stage is perfectly legal.


Dreamland:
Hazards on: LEGAL-The Hazard is just annoying. Harmless though.
Hazards off: LEGAL-Nothing polarizing about this stage. Perfectly legal.

Castle Siege:
Hazards on: LEGAL-The transformations last a short enough amount of time to be legal.
Hazards off: LEGAL-Nothing polarizing about this stage. Legal.

Smashville: LEGAL-Nothing polarizing about this stage (f*** this stage tho). Perfectly legal.

[EDIT]
Palutena's Shrine: BANNED-Too big. Promotes circle camping.
[/EDIT]



Look, I know most of the not typically legal stages I called legal here will ever be legal because the community is close-minded, but this isn’t about whether or not they should be legal, this is about the fact that very few of you would’ve thought something like 3DS’s hazards (Or Hazards in general) could pass as legal. I took into account every stage, and it turns out, more often than not, it’s not the hazard that gets a stage banned, but rather the stage’s layout itself. I just want you guys to start perhaps taking into account that maybe Hazards aren’t inherently bad. Dracula’s Castle without Hazards is a Dracula’s Castle I don’t wanna play on. Just consider hazards when making the stagelist, as they can be fun and change the game in a unique way. Here’s the final stagelist:
Image
Colored: Is only legal with Hazards
Uncolored: Is only legal without Hazards
Half&Half: Is different with and without hazards, but both forms are legal.
1: Is legal only in Singles
2: Is legal only in doubles
No number: Is legal in both
I'll let you guys can fight over which ones should be starters or counterpicks. Or you could simply ignore me and laugh this off as a "dumb" stagelist. I'm just here to point out the possibilities; it's up to you to make them a reality or not.

_________________
shh, they forgot to ban me
Join the GarrisonHQ Discord here: https://discord.gg/uDam5vj


Last edited by Happyfrozenfire on Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.



Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:37 pm

Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:46 pm
Posts: 1514
Location: Westchester, New York
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Zalozis Zemsis
Skype: ZaloZemsis
Currently Playing: Gundam Wing: Endless Dual | Melty Blood: Actress Again Current Code | Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Sorry to be rude, but this is a freaking mess.

Space your lines and bold titles. You want us to read your explanation; at least make it neat and organized for others to easily read and understand.

I also don't think you needed to waste any time explaining the "duh" banned-stage like Devil's Machine, Flatzone, Sand Ocean, etc. Goes against your title, 'Explanations as to which stages could potentially be legal'

We need more intensive discussion on stages like Metal Cavern, Saturn Valley, etc., because they have qualities that cripple some characters' abilities; we need to thoroughly discuss those effects on the meta.

_________________

Luigi Movement, Cancel, Tech, etc.
YouTube Video:
SSF2 Google Drive
". . . Emphasis . . . of players helping one-another"


Fri Jun 30, 2017 3:21 pm
WWW
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:26 pm
Posts: 571
Location: NC
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: [BANNED]
Currently Playing: SSF2TAS
edited to look pretty

Also, although I did edit it to show a few "obviously illegal" stages getting skimmed through, the whole point of this was to acknowledge *all* possibilities, which is why I had it the way I did. Still, I admit, easiness to read should be a priority.

_________________
shh, they forgot to ban me
Join the GarrisonHQ Discord here: https://discord.gg/uDam5vj


Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:31 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 9:54 am
Posts: 109
Country: Antarctica (aq)
In 3ds, you can literally go underground. Besides, it has terrible ledges, and we have two other good flat stages. Having too many stages overcomplicates stage striking as well.

_________________
Image


Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:08 pm
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:26 pm
Posts: 571
Location: NC
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: [BANNED]
Currently Playing: SSF2TAS
I'm gonna stick with my argument that a stage should only be banned if it's polarizing to the point of unplayability, not for a reason such as "There are too many legal stages" simply for the sake of the thread, though I do think that 3DS with Hazards off should be fused with FD.

_________________
shh, they forgot to ban me
Join the GarrisonHQ Discord here: https://discord.gg/uDam5vj


Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:10 pm
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:24 am
Posts: 23
Location: No.
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
Skype: ZengarroRazor
Currently Playing: I think that exceeds the char limit...
Waifu: -_-
Couple of Comments:

3DS: Generally, I think this is a good stage. I do second what bunq said, however. I can go underground, which makes me both invincible and invisible. That's a bit of a problem, allowing whoever is underground to rack up damage. Also, if BOTH players are underground, then there is a big problem because oddly I've found that you can still "fall" off the DS even though there is ground (because underground means you're on the normal stage). So I can literally just side thust, gaging if I hit from the %s and knock a person to their death while they can't see what's happening. This should be a bit more EHH, I think.


Pac-Maze: I like this stage, but with the ability to just infinite loop around the screen that leads to some issues. I'm a PMAN main, and if I just spam cherry toss while facing the stage I can pile on damage while remaining more or less immune to being hit...and if I get into danger, I can just float away, still tossing stuff. Also, things like PMAN's trampoline that allows for extremely high jumping make the stage kooky, because if I go to the top of the stage, double jump and then up-b, I will hit the bottom of the stage with my attack.

_________________
Image
Every reason I main PMAN:
YouTube Video:


Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:06 am
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:26 pm
Posts: 571
Location: NC
Country: United States (us)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: [BANNED]
Currently Playing: SSF2TAS
AlphaeusZR wrote:
Pac-Maze: I like this stage, but with the ability to just infinite loop around the screen that leads to some issues. I'm a PMAN main, and if I just spam cherry toss while facing the stage I can pile on damage while remaining more or less immune to being hit...and if I get into danger, I can just float away, still tossing stuff. Also, things like PMAN's trampoline that allows for extremely high jumping make the stage kooky, because if I go to the top of the stage, double jump and then up-b, I will hit the bottom of the stage with my attack.

In doubles that won't really work, so that's why it's "Ehh" and only legal in doubles.

_________________
shh, they forgot to ban me
Join the GarrisonHQ Discord here: https://discord.gg/uDam5vj


Sat Jul 01, 2017 10:35 am

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:47 pm
Posts: 62
Country: Canada (ca)
bunq wrote:
In 3ds, you can literally go underground. Besides, it has terrible ledges, and we have two other good flat stages. Having too many stages overcomplicates stage striking as well.

I would put up the argument that 3ds should be the legal one over waiting room. as it has more poterntial to gimp characters with linear recoveries, which makes it a more diffferent stage then waiting room is.

_________________
Why have a wall of pain, when you can have a wall of JUSTICE!?!

Click to expand thumbnail
Main: Jigs, Bowser
Secondaries: The rest of the cast.
I Really Want To Play But Hes Really Bad: Kirby
~Yay! I love being the only solomain!~


Sat Jul 15, 2017 3:29 pm
BR Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:33 pm
Posts: 2002
Country: Germany (de)
Gender: Male
MGN Username: TSF|Cookies
Currently Playing: PM, Melee, Ultimate, Hollow Knight
If we are really technical, Waiting Room is actually the most neutral member of the FD family, which is definetly a bonus considering it is a neutral stage and stuff :chibirobo: The left and right blastzone of FD are very slightly not symmetrical, and 3DS not only has Melee BF ledges (seriously, screw that stage for the ledges alone) but is also the smallest of the bunch. Being small and flat are controversial enough on their own, let alone having both combined.

_________________
Join Team Star Flash!
Image


Shoutouts to Harr for this sick player card!

Join Chibi Nation, the 20CR Discord for all aspiring Chibi-Robo mains!

Click to expand thumbnail


Sun Jul 16, 2017 7:08 am
WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 [ 9 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Designed by ST Software for PTF.