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Smash Flash Back Room 0.9b Tier List #2 
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It will be nice to be able to look back on what the game was like at the time. A final tier list is a fitting send-off to a version that we've been playing for three years.

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Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:25 pm
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Yeah, I agree.

Damn this was and still is a long ride.

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Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:30 pm
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
@PurpouHeize:

You're right that Kirby has a decent grab game on some characters, and more than a few useful moves in his kit. Side-B is very powerful but extremely laggy and easy to punish, which makes it not very useful except out of a combo in competitive play. Neutral-B is really useful in some matchups, but not in every matchup and is very punishable if you miss.

The main things holding Kirby back are a lack of mobility (very poor speed and dash length means that he can't maneuver effectively on the ground, and a poor airspeed mars him in the air) and a lack of range.

The reason this hurts him so much is easiest to see if you think about the neutral like this: every character has a range where they can hit you before you can react. For a character like Marth, that range is dash-cancel dtilt or fsmash: really far. That means that even when Marth isn't swinging his sword, the implicit pressure of being able to hit you very quickly means that you have to be extremely wary of him. Fox doesn't have a lot of range, but he still has so much speed that this crucial unreactable-attack range is still large: running SH nair.

For most characters, this crucial zone is a function of both speed and range. Kirby has terrible range AND speed, so the range at which Kirby applies implicit pressure is tiny. That means that you very rarely are scared of what Kirby is about to do and can usually deal with whatever he does. Even matchups where Kirby has a brutal punish game and is considered to win the MU (Kirby-Fox) can sometimes be dismantled by extremely patient play. Kirby has good defensive tools, but he can't really approach effectively, so just sit back and make him come to you and he struggles immensely.

Of course, once you hit Kirby another weakness becomes apparent: his lack of a good combo breaker means that many characters like Marth can deal lots of damage in punishes despite Kirby's weight and falling speed, and his lack of survivability means that characters like Marth get extremely quick kills out of combos like fthrow -> fsmash.

Combined, this means that while Kirby has good matchups against some characters that have trouble dealing with Kirby's small size, priority, and edgeguarding ability (Falcon, Fox), he has extremely difficult matchups (70-30 or worse, some of the worst in the game for anyone!) against characters like Marth that can abuse Kirby's lack of implicit pressure and projectile options to slowly dismantle Kirby in the neutral and abuse his lack of combo breakers and poor survivability to make each hit count for a lot. He's not unviable or anything, but he struggles a lot in a few matchups, making him a much tougher solo main than the vast majority of the cast. (He's actually a pretty good secondary with a character that can handle his bad MU's and appreciates Kirby's MU versus fast fast-fallers).


Sora-Kirby is an extremely challenging pair of mains! They both struggle so much against Marth and Lloyd (two of the most-played characters), and this means that they really don't cover each other's weaknesses at all. Every character is viable in SSF2 so there's nothing stopping anyone from doing that, but I'd recommend if someone were trying to pick two characters to main in tournaments that you pick a character that handles range well (Fox, Sheik, Marth, Pikachu sorta, Falcon for dealing with Marth, ZSS, etc.) so that even if you then use a character as your primary main that struggles with range (Wario, Kirby, Sora, Zelda, Puff, etc.), you aren't forced to play bad matchups over and over in tournaments.


From what I'm hearing, it sounds like Kirby isn't "Melee-bad" competitively, but he could still use some work to make him more viable, am I right?


Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:18 am
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Every character is viable, it's just that some have it easier than others.

Kirby is nowhere near Melee or Brawl viability. He just has some struggles competing in a meta dominated by range and speed as opposed to power or offstage game.

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Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:54 pm
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
Every character is viable, it's just that some have it easier than others.


:chibirobo:

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Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:45 pm
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Skylar wrote:
TheCodeSamurai wrote:
Every character is viable, it's just that some have it easier than others.


:chibirobo:

Boi he's right you know, SSF2 is pretty cool that way, while it has some OP characters, and some easy to play characters, it still leaves every character viable for competitive play.

As for Kirbles, he has plenty of good tools, he has little landing lag on his aerials leading to some pretty cool Fair -> grab/Utilt combos, his hammer can cover the area immediately behind him for some cool roll covers, dash dance to dash attack works like a charm, and everything about Uspec is good, his recovery is also great horizontally and vertically assuming the user spaces the Uspec properly. Like I said, Kirby has lot's of good tools, he just has trouble getting into a position to use them well. It's not that he's weak, just an odd learning curve to him.

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Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:18 pm
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All Im going to say for now on the subject of viable is that "everyone is viable" stands and falls with what is defined as viable. If you say that viable means "able to make Top 8 at a decently sized tournament" then you are most likely correct (seeing as I have done so myself in the past). If your definition of viable is "able to win large tournaments alone" then I will have to disagree, considering the horrid MU spread certain lowtiers have (my two examples would be Chibi and Wario among others).

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Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:50 am
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Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:38 pm
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To ba fair, Sora has great combo ability, which means he just have to win neutral once or twice to get MK (who is a lightweight floaty) into kill percent... And the real skill involved here is attempting to kill that MK, thunder might be good?

Also, Chibi Robo has a decent matchup against MK (iirc about 60-40? Or 55-45? Maybe even 50-50 but I highly doubt it)

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Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:27 pm
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Jan_Solo wrote:
Also, Chibi Robo has a decent matchup against MK (iirc about 60-40? Or 55-45? Maybe even 50-50 but I highly doubt it)


Its 55/45 in MK's favour at most, I actuallly lean towards even a bit more. Of course this is super great to have seeing that MK is easily in the Top 2 standalone characters, but MK is propably also in the Top 2 characters with the least representation - that and MK has quite many lowtier MUs that aren't all that much in his favour. Aside from that, Chibi's matchups against pretty much all the other high/top tiers are notably worse. Sheik, Mage and a few others are around 40/60 (doable, but irritating), and it only goes downhill from here. Sheik is iffy but doable (propably around 40/60), Zelda can mess with Chibi really bad, and Fox, Lloyd, DK, Ichigo and Marth all have a 70/30 MU (or even more lopsided for the first three) against Chibi in their respective favour, and those are all very common opponents in bracket. Pikachu, albeit rare, has a chaingrab on Chibi that is one huge 50/50 DI mixup well beyond DTHrow -> USmash KO percents and is one of the best edgeguarders in the game, the list goes on. In fact, Chibi loses to virtually the entire cast minus the lowtiers (and even there his best MUs are from even to 60/40 in his favour), which is obviously quite an issue given how rare it is to run into a bracket that is filled with Kirby/Peach/Sonic etc. I just cannot see how a character that has incredibly MUs against the characters that are the most common in the current meta (again, 30/70 if not worse against some) is supposed to be able to win a large tournament without the bracket gods doing overtime.

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Didn't Kyoz win a tournament with Chibi?

I think every character could win any tournament. It's perhaps unlikely, but not impossible.

The other thing to keep in mind is that once you get to the upper echelons of the SSF2 scene, it's far more about players than characters. If you look at the earlier tier lists, they're dominated by Kyoz and Lunary characters because those were the things winning tournaments. Obviously there's plenty to like in ZSS, but her dominance in the tournament scene wasn't because she was busted, but more that out of the twenty-something characters in the game, most of them in the hands of players who are in their own tier could beat everyone else.

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Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:56 am
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
Didn't Kyoz win a tournament with Chibi?

I think every character could win any tournament. It's perhaps unlikely, but not impossible.

The other thing to keep in mind is that once you get to the upper echelons of the SSF2 scene, it's far more about players than characters. If you look at the earlier tier lists, they're dominated by Kyoz and Lunary characters because those were the things winning tournaments. Obviously there's plenty to like in ZSS, but her dominance in the tournament scene wasn't because she was busted, but more that out of the twenty-something characters in the game, most of them in the hands of players who are in their own tier could beat everyone else.


Came close to winning one with Ichigo.

But Chaunch decided it wasn't my time yet.

I got second.

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