Disagree totally on Galaxy Tours, mostly since even if the layout of the plats is different the heights and general location on the stage do not change. Also in terms of making enough stages of varying size in terms of blastzones, I still feel like there are a large/skewed balance to smaller stages, especially vertically. That being said, this concern is solely nitpicky/seperate from what was suggested so it's fine.

Otherwise this stagelist seems solid. Castle Town while in practice hasn't been terrible (you still can get in), if it were to get optimized like some matchups turn into 90-10's or worse on them with Falco, Mega Man, Fox, etc. being the worst perpetrators. Like Falco w/o the knowledge/willingness to camp is still a pain in the a** to get in on that stage if he wants to be. I like the idea of 2 bans, granted chars who want small stages still are better off versus larger stage preference characters but the stagelist is alright.

Only question is that was/would Sky Sanctuary (No Hazards) be viable at all? Seems like it would be decent as a medium sized stage or something that's slightly smaller than Dracula's if people hate that stage for w/e reason.

Could you give me an example of any character that could possibly abuse a camping mechanic for Clock Town in a reasonable, unpunishable manner? Or one that might have too much of an advantage because of it? Because I'm sure that this whole thing is very likely blown out of proportion.

Also, why limit the stage list to only 10 stages (not counting alternates)?

Also, what are your thoughts on Metal Cavern? Did you forget that is also a stage? In fact, why haven't we talked about Metal Cavern as a potential legal stage?

My opinion on tournament legal stages...

STARTER:

Final Destination/Waiting Room
Smashville
Pokemon Colosseum
Battlefield


COUNTERPICK:

Dreanland/Yoshi's Story
Wario Ware
Tower of Salvation
Dracula's Castle (with or without Hazards)
Rainbow Route
Metal Cavern
Saturn Valley
Jungle Hijinx
Castle Siege
Sky Sanctuary Zone


VERY POLARIZING, BUT HAS SMALL POTENTIAL

World Tournament (Hazards On)
Hylian Skies (Hazards On)



Maybe some explanations soon

again, there are just simply better stages to run than Clock Town. as it is, there are so many stages that are capable of being legal as starters or counterpicks to the point where all of them are probably not gonna be used.

basically, if it was a tier system, with 1 being very neutral (battlefield, pokemon colosseum, etc), 2 being good counterpicks, and 3 being stages that are decent for counterpicks but are not as good as tier 2, it's probably a 3. but why would we put a tier 3 stage when we're probably not even running all of 2?

not to mention, it's awkward to fight on relative to other stages, and you have FAR less approach options when fighting someone that's camping in that little spot near the edge of the top platform.

it makes camping a far better strategy than other stages.

it's very similar to a wall being there except you risk more by trying to approach from the air because you're offstage as a result (and offstage is rarely ever an advantageous state when your opponent is on stage)

For Clock Tower (because have seen this multiple times when testing the stage playing DK
Falco
Megaman
Fox
Link
Zelda (kinda)
Bomberman (kinda)
Shiek
Samus
Bandanna Dee

And even the characters like DK/Bowser get similar advantages with a stock lead, I like the stage but any char with a lead, or a decent projectile will 100% dominate on that stage. Like camping is a fun strategy and I like the stage... but it can be very polarizing, ESPECIALLY once people get good at this game. And these are chars who can projectile camp.... there's a risk you will never catch a jiggs or wario if they don't want to be caught on this stage because air camping is just as good. Not hating on camping, it's a legit strategy but the stage makes it too powerful even if small.

As a reality check just to show you guys that I'm not trying to flip the meta upside down rofl. If anyone intends on testing haz off starters, haz on counterpicks, here's an example of what a more mature stagelist would look like going with what we argued about for 6 pages on hyperbole - and it allows us to drastically cut down on the clone stages, making striking less annoying:

Starter - Hazards off, used only on match 1. Cannot be Gentleman'd to after match 1.

• Final Destination/Waiting Room/3DS
• Tower of Salvation
• Metal Cavern
• Jungle Hijinx
• Dream Land/Yoshi's Story
• Battlefield
• Smashville

Counterpick - Hazards on. 2 bans.

• World Tournament
• Galaxy Tours
• Dracula's Castle
• Saturn Valley
• Castle Siege
• Hylian Skies
• Pokemon Colosseum

This is not mind-blowingly different, it just varies the CP's a lot more. The CP stages don't even have to be radical.

And here's a list of all stages organized by their viability. This might blow your mind but I have sound reasons for each characterization and there's still a boatload of banned stages wow amazing





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100% appreciate the justifications and everything that's been discussed- in this hypothetical are the starters banned after game 1 to ensure stages get tested or is there some other rationale for banning them after the 1st game?

I would say for testing purposes to ban them after match 1 until we get some solid opinions. That absolutely can be repealed once stages are tested BUT it also could stay for sake of not having to flip the hazard switch on/off like 6 times between matches. I can imagine it being a logistical nightmare expecting players to hold themselves accountable for remembering which stages are hazards on/off if either can be selected at a given time, you know what I mean?

EDIT: actually if you cut tos/3ds/dreamland out of that stagelist it might work since none of the other neutral stages are affected. then players only have to remember to turn them on after match 1... wouldn't be much loss either since those stages have clones p much. but again one of the major reasons i wanted to do this originally was so that players dont have the ability to strike through all or most of the slightly-polarizing stages and be left with just wider neutrals in the CPs 100% of the time like 9b :I

I don't get how you see how fast basic mobility can be in this game over Melee/Project M, but you want Metal Cavern as a neutral.

Hell, it's too is too freaking small to even be legal. For same reason WarioWare was banned in later v0.9b (should've been banned Day-1), there isn't enough space that many characters need to escape pressure. Fast characters with long-range like Marth, Lloyd, and DK felt unbeatable playing as other characters; that's three of the most used characters in that demo. The stage eventually stopped being played on and why it was enlarged in Beta because it turned small disadvantage MUs into suddenly being 80-20. Metal Cavern is even smaller than that and it feels so polarizing for rushdown-based characters. I only see it running into the same issues, just like it did in Project M.

It was enlarged just because it was resprited tho not because we thought it was too small lol... And imo the non-rushdown characters have a lot more tools at their disposal this demo. Most of our probable top tier characters this demo also combo vertically/offstage now too so that's worth noting.

Regardless tho I don't think Metal Cavern was the focal point of that post we can remove it from the list of neutrals if found necessary

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Yoshi's Story exponentially smaller in Melee, and wasn't Green Hill Zone in Project M quite...uh...small, too?
And both of them were also tournament legal stages. So what's wrong with Metal Cavern?

And if size is really going to be an issue, we could just ask the devs if they could expand the size of the stage a little bit to be in line with the others in this game, just to make it more competitive.

YS in Melee/PM/any game it's been in historically has been the smallest legal stage, GHZ's decent size just not a lot of space on the stage itself. That being said, I don't think asking the devs to fix stages, barring game breaking glitches/bugs is really worth their time. Like 100% Metal Cavern is just as weird/polarizing as Yoshi's Story (I like Metal Cavern more), but....again a bunch of longer ranged/disjoint characters would love the f*** outta that stage, maybe wouldn't be the same issues as say castle town, but it would polarize a few MU's.

that stagelist isn't really that great and it's turning on hazards for no really great reason.

that looks like a stagelist for a charity event tournament, not for "serious" play.


like, no seriously. you can't have a normal match in anything except game 1 with that hypothetical ruleset unless you pick Galaxy Tours or Dracula's Castle. everything else is wack.

another good post ^. we're all having a productive discussion and you keep saying "that's wack" with no details. it's fine if you disagree on a fundamental level but u don't have to parrot yourself every time I post (what u can do though is hit me with the I told you so if it doesn't work out!)

Counterpick - Hazards on. 2 bans.
[list][*]World Tournament: everyone else in this thread has ripped this stage to shreds, i dont really see why you even bothered putting it on here. Its an awful concept that if you fall 2 cm you instantly die.
[*]Galaxy Tours
[*]Dracula's Castle
[*]Saturn Valley makes it so whoever can control the stage better wins. zoners willl have a huge advantage, promotes stalling.
[*]Castle Siege: walk off. f*** off. same with
[*]Hylian Skies: infinite. yes they go away but who cares because even though you might not be able to get the full 300% you will still get 100% bare minimum.
[*]Pokemon Colosseum one of the f*** transformations literally blinds all but one part of the screen. That is reason enough to ban it. other then that, there are infinite, it promotes camping and is just a s*** stage


i dont see how you cant seem to wrap your head around the fact that maybe infinites might not be a good idea.