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Fox 
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Good change list. It's all minor tweaks and keep him as a destructive offensive-character, but he'll be much more balanced while still having good options.

We also should make to so during the launch, you can slightly tilt the travel path of Fire-Fox. Just so we can emulate those Melee angles.

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:39 am
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Zalozis wrote:
Good change list. It's all minor tweaks and keep him as a destructive offensive-character, but he'll be much more balanced while still having good options.

We also should make to so during the launch, you can slightly tilt the travel path of Fire-Fox. Just so we can emulate those Melee angles.

Do you mean like Ness PKT2, at the end, or during the entire animation of FF?

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:50 pm
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I think he means like this
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or maybe slighter

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:00 pm
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I'm thinking that Firefox sets a direction out of the normal eight, but continuing to press things alters the direction slightly.

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:41 pm
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
I'm thinking that Firefox sets a direction out of the normal eight, but continuing to press things alters the direction slightly.
I think this is the way to do it. There could be a "locked in" graphic that appears a couple frames before Fox takes off, indicating that his initial direction is set. That would allow him to keep the option of changing his mind about the angle during startup. However, in those couple frames after the graphic and before he goes, the appropriate right/left/up/down input would cause him to move at the chosen secondary-intercardinal angle. That gives him 16 total possible angles, which I think is just enough to buff his recovery to an acceptable level without making the system overly complicated.

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:20 pm
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rofl I made this suggestion ages ago but nobody seemed to understand me XD

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Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:12 pm
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Im trying to learn the character, and as someone who has no experience with Melee, I have no idea how to multishine and shinecancel. Can someone here let me know?

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Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:03 am
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TSF|Corvid wrote:
Im trying to learn the character, and as someone who has no experience with Melee, I have no idea how to multishine and shinecancel. Can someone here let me know?

Simple, jump while in your shine. It will cancel into a jump. Now, if you input down + B while in jumpsquat, Fox will shine again the first frame out of jumpsquat. If you use tap jump you have to alternate up to jump then down +B to shine, but if you use a separate jump button you can just hold your down button, then alternate between jump + B and it'll work.

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Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:22 pm
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So,i've been trying out fox for a while and he is very fun to play!
u-tilts into u-air does so much damage and just feels satisfied to do it. i may pick him up as a secondary.
Any more tips for fox?

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Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:27 am
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Weak nair is your best tool: safe on shield if you land with it, combos into utilt -> uair, uthrow -> uair, usmash, uair, bair, or nair depending on DI and percent, and has good priority. Bair is your best kill-fishing move, not usmash.

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Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:33 am
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
Weak nair is your best tool: safe on shield if you land with it, combos into utilt -> uair, uthrow -> uair, usmash, uair, bair, or nair depending on DI and percent, and has good priority.


You forgot to mention that it jab-resets

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My changelists for Fox, I'il try not to be extremely biased here. :fox:

Buffs

Make his Dair connect better
Allow all hits of Fair to connect
Buff power on Dsmash, and make it knock you lower
Make Dthrow deal more damage
Buff lazers to deal more damage
Make him able to jump/upb after SideB in the air


Nerfs

I know Fox's Bair is getting nerfed in Beta, but give him a sourspot in his Bair, and make the sweetspot a bit weaker, and make it launch you higher up.
Nerf the damage and power of the fully/uncharged Usmash, give it more endlag, and make it knock you more sideways.
Nerf damage on fully charged Dsmash
Make Uthrow Uair DI-able, and nerf damage on Uthrow
Nerf power a bit on Uair
Give Utilt more endlag, and reduce hitstun
Give Dtilt less reach and power
And lastly... Give Nair some endlag on the ground.
Oh yeah I forgot, remove lazer glitch on black mage.

This will make me hate fox less. Yay!
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Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:21 pm
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I really don't like a lot of this stuff, to be honest. Dair already connects fine and even if the whole thing doesn't hit it often still combos. Fair is fine as is: what we don't need is an aerial that can do 20+% with good KB. I really don't want dsmash to be a semi-spike or close: we already have enough of those. Jumping after Illusion would just straight-up make him OP: you can now instantly get away from any situation unpunishably, against slow opponent lasers become more insane then they are already, Illusion -> uair becomes a bread-and-butter kill setup at mid-high percents, and his recovery becomes insane. Nerf usmash a little, but don't change the angle IMO, because one of the interesting things about Fox is that he kills vertically, and so he provides depth to a game where most characters kill horizontally. Changing the angle impacts his MU's against floaties and fast-fallers considerably, and also removes a really cool combo tool when used creatively. Utilt is a really cool move as it is right now: it gives his combo game a lot of depth and makes some of the awful floaty matchups a bit more palatable. Dtilt is also a really cool move when used creatively, and it's not like it's unpunishable or anything. Nair is really awesome as it is right now, and essentially what makes Fox Fox, so I don't see why you need to nerf it. If you nerf it too much and it becomes unsafe on shield or close, Fox loses his entire approach game.

If you want to nerf Fox's worst aspects a little, tone down his kill moves on floaties, remove uthrow auto-combos, and perhaps make Fox a little more technical by decreasing jumpstart (with online becoming less laggy hopefully, this will even out online). If you want to keep what makes him awesome, then keep his combo game, his singular approach, and his mobility.

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Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:52 pm
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Fox does not lose his entire approach game with a nerfed Nair. His speed is what makes him, not the overbearing properties of a single move. At the very least, Nair should have more landing lag than soft landing. No character deserves to get to throw out a hitbox that is safe on shield for the low price of completely free on their way to the ground.

Also, decreasing jumpsquat is the complete opposite of a nerf. It doesn't matter how technical something is; making a technique hard to pull off is an artifical means for balance. Someone will get consistent with it and then we'll have a Fox running around with even more blindingly fast out-of-shield options and an exponentially more terrifying neutral game. Multishines could be thrown out ridiculously quickly and any combos that rely on jumping - which is a majority of the combos in Smash - would be directly buffed. For example, Uthrow - Uair would be even more free on everyone even with DI on Uthrow. Fox with a frame less of jumpsquat is a nightmareish prospect.

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Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:07 pm
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Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I agree that jumpstart increase is a buff. I'm just saying that people in the past have complained that Fox's auto-combos are too easy, and if you wanted to make them harder you could. I personally am pretty ambivalent on what the value should be.

While Fox can use his speed to be more evasive and approach with dair, bair, Shine, or grab, you can't deny that the cornerstone of Fox's approach game is nair. At least 90% of true neutral approaches that I see (i.e., not just punishing another person's neutral approach or making a read) are with nair. While certainly if it was nerfed Foxes would start being more evasive with lasers and not doing the sort of blind run-in SH nair that is so common nowadays, it would definitely be an enormous nerf to Fox's approach game and would redefine the character (depending on how large the change is).

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