Not sure what you're trying to get at with your first sentence, but I'm assuming you mean Lloyd has to rely on his F-Air a lot because he has few KO options, and that reliance on F-Air parallels Marth's. Ganondorf also relies on F-Air to KO. That doesn't mean he plays like Marth.

Second sentence also doesn't really make sense to me? I'd like an explanation on how playing him like Mario, apparently, doesn't take much thinking.

Neutral-B is pretty neat, and if by "mediocre" you mean you can't win by relying solely on it, then, yeah, it's mediocre.

People with brains can avoid a lot of things in theory. I doubt people have trouble Shielding either missile from Samus's Side-B from across the stage just by pure reaction. Doesn't change the fact that it's one of the better attacks in the game. Lloyd's Down-B is avoidable if it's anticipated, or even if it's reacted to, but that's not really saying much lol. A lot of attacks are telegraphed more than 0.34 second before they hit (roughly the reaction threshold to respond appropriately towards an attack), and that does not necessarily stop them from being useful. I doubt Lloyd's Down-B is as useless as you say, unless you've given a serious try to use it to its fullest potential against a human opponent and it turned out to be useless, in which case I take back what I've said (provided that you are competently using Lloyd).

These Lloyd comparisons are starting to get ridiculous......
Especially if you consider the fact that there are tons of differences between Lloyd and, oh I dunno, EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THIS GAME :/

Honestly these comparisons have to stop. Yes if you play Lloyd you're most likely to pick up Marth and vice versa but that doesn't mean they're so closely related.
Marth is a more all out aggression character considering he has no projectiles and he can string moves well whereas Lloyd can change the pace of the game whenever he wishes considering his variety of moves.

Another note: Grave Blade is only useful for starting an aerial combo, I have never seen anyone use it for something else.

It can't be any worse then how people are defending his s*** moveset.
Differences? The character is pretty bland and one of the most boring characters in the game, and when a character like Marth has more depth then him you know there's a problem.
And the comparisons are actually pretty damn accurate unless you're a brain dead scrub.

tone down your attitude yoh i'm getting offended and it's not even directed towards me right now
i think everyone gets that you don't like his moveset considering you even made another account to complain about it earlier and agree with yourself i think it's time to move on
can we focus on making the best of the current moveset instead of threadcrapping on everyone who tries to

Edit: TSON said what I planned to. Thank you TSON. Ultimately, we're all here attempting to push Lloyd play to its maximum, so let us strive for civility at the least.

Anyroad, it's important to acknowledge the difference between a character being boring and a character being bad. One does not beget the other. Boring characters can be good, just as exciting characters can be bad. I am not arguing that Grave Blade is a well-designed move or an interesting one. I think it could be a very cool move both graphically and mechanically with some spit and polish, and as I mentioned previously, the same could be said of Lloyd as a whole. But I digress. The point that I was trying to make is that regardless of whether it is "boring" or it does not fit with one's vision of what Lloyd "should" be in Smash, Grave Blade is a move that compliments the current iteration of the character marvelously.

@Suli: Yeah, that's what's so amazing about it. Not only does it invalidate some moves by simply existing, but it's also a cross-stage hit confirm into a lot more damage and/or a KO.

I personally don't think anything is wrong with Grave Blade. If it's main use is just to keep people honest, that's plenty enough reason to use it from time to time. The rest of his moves are hella good enough as it is.

You do realize Red is a completely different person right. lmao

Pretty sure he meant "Peach Cobbler."

I don't even have a alt.
I'm sure he meant the fact that I made a topic of suggestions for Lloyd.

my point was

we get that you don't like the moveset so we should get back to discussing what's at hand and how to be good with it like the other mains are.

Lloyd's moveset is pretty good when you look closer or actually know how to use him well. Down-Special (Grave Blade) is pretty helpful in situations like when your opponent is about to touch the ground. If you time it right, it can knock them right of their feet and you can perform an air combo on them or if their damage is high, finish them off with Up-Smash, Down-Smash, Side-Special, Forward-Air, whatever.

He has projectiles and can at least put off your opponent for a split second, then you can grab them or something. His Side-Smash is pretty decent and covers a good range. He's not a bad character and can really get on people's nerves

Jeez, people are rude....


So let's see what I've learned about Lloyd so far, definitely one of my most unexplored characters.

I've tried rush downs, which work pretty good but still didn't feel right.
Tried different kinds of defensive tactics, nope.
Maybe bounce between the 2? YES

It seems he runs between a H&C playstyle, or Hot and Cold. Kinda reminds me of Brawl's Marth (which was pretty good), but yet it doesn't because the variety of options he has.

Dash attack, uair, dspecial, dair, and fair seem like good combo moves. Especially uair, he's like a juggle master with that move.

Really all I have for now, see ya'll's later.

Grave Blade is too slow though, which pretty much makes it easily predictable and punishable, it's just overall worthless much like Sheik's chain. There's hardly any reason to use it too when his grabs set-up much better than his down-B does (even if he has terrible grab range). Up-throw easily leads into tons of Uairs, or even Fair if they're not going too high.

Also his projectile isn't even that good either. They plummet to the ground faster than Fox would, and pretty much work as a slightly better version of the Ice Climber's neutral-B, but that's hardly saying anything. People can easily jump out of the way, and approaching won't be that useful because it's obvious you will be jumping after them after using DF/DDF and they can easily air dodge your attack or hit you with a quick aerial (depending on the character) before you even do anything. They're not terrible projectiles, but they're not exactly that useful or versatile either. With how fast and hardly limited horizontal movement is in this game while mid-air, it's easy to just literally jump at your attacker and air dodge next to them. Pretty sure most characters just literally have 100% Captain Falcon momentum when they jump out of a dash, and with instant dashing in this game, well you can picture the rest.

I hardly consider rushing people down with tons of Fairs and Uairs to be versatility. He just sets up with Utilt or Uthrow and his 2 aerials worth using take care of the rest, then maybe finish off with a good Fthrow, rinse and repeat. He's so stale of a character it's honestly pretty boring. I don't even know why his Fair hits so ridiculously hard either. around 16% if fresh and if you go gimp someone it's a guaranteed KO without even trying, though you'd be lucky to come back on-stage with that hardly existent recovery of his.

Probably not, but it seems to work.




Define slow...

As far as I'm concerned, slow attacks are basically nonexistant. The slowest we get are really Ichigo's smashes lol.

They are existent though. It's not tremendously slow, but the build-up is still slow enough that your opponent can react to it easily, and since the attack is stuck to the ground you won't have any luck landing it at all while they're airborne. And they can just approach you and attack you while you're trying to get them with it. Honestly the only situation I see this move being usable is if the opponent has no way to go airborne to evade it, and that's probably just if they're sleeping or dizzy from a shield-break. Lloyd has other moves that let him get first blood way better than his down-B does.