Swap Black Mage with Naruto, BBM with Sandbag, Have Bowser higher than DK, Have G&W and Link swap, Place BDee a bit higher, Swap Pac-Man and ZSS, then it should be reasonable.

Also Manta? Whats up with pac-man being ridiculously high? Hes bottom 10 or next to bottom 5 imo. He has no reliable kill power, a terrible a** grab game, can be easily counterplayed, has a gimpable recovery, pretty poor normals outside of n-air, and he has TERRIBLE matchups which pretty much make him unviable as a whole. Even with Kyoz, he doesn't enter a lot of tournaments and it was quite clear how Kyoz originally won due to matchup inexperience but he hasn't really entered much tournaments outside of that. And theres no other notable pac-man mains either that back up Pac-Man's results.

Yeah, that opinion has certainly changed as Kyoz himself has made clear on the matter. I'm just tardy to the party.

I guess that opinions from bomberman secondaries don't matter even when he has low representation
Also, what can bbm really do against disjoints? He gets hit by faster disjoints and his bombs can be clanked by other disjoints
And on the note of throws, they're not bad, it's just that other characters have better combos out of throws

After testing a bit, maybe BBM is not K tier, but I doubt he can get out of low tier

And on the note of testing, holy s*** that recovery is just terrible

But the thing that no one is really answering is that in v0.9b, he sat just below A-tier, hurting from the exact same problems he currently has. And yet his control has improved and bombs are arguably more useful with the hitbox, giving him more options with his throws/kicks.

Disjoints are... annoying, but just throwing out small bombs constantly is surprisingly effective in even his worst MUs. So much so, that it frankly just pisses opponents off having to deal with little hits + detonate confirms into grabs/aerials. I've got a ton of work to do with him to optimize, but his flaws are not crippling relative to the potential that he has. And that AT LEAST pulls him into the rest of the cast in B-tier.

The main reason why he was a huge threat in 9b was because of the huge explosion radius even in just a small bomb that a whole platform is basically rendered useless unless you want to get combo'd

A whole stage can be covered with just medium bombs but now it's basically half as effective

And you keep forgetting that hitboxes are a double-edged sword, sure they're hitboxes but that makes them easy to reflect or clanked by anything that deals enough damage

It wasnt mainly this, though the stupid bomb radius was a problem it was the fact that bbm had amazing ground mobility coupled with strong aerials that linked into one another and killed, kill throws that put ness bthrow to shame. All of that made a character that practically had a 50-50 in his favor whenever he had a bomb on stage. You shield and you can avoid a bomb setup/kill, but if you shield you get grabbed and take 40% or a possible kill AND give bbm time to set up a p bomb.

Now that both his aerials and his grab game have been weakened along with bombs, it makes for a character who is very underwhelming in neutral, getting grabbed is nowhere near as scary as before and things like sh fair and bair are way less safe too.

Bomb kicks now are also super underwhelming, rather slow to setup and avoided by just shielding and jumping away, it definitely does not give bbm any sort of real advantage when used since they're pretty weak on hit and dont lead into anything confirmed on hit iirc.

Bair is still pretty safe, and Nair has some solid follow-ups. Hitting with bomb kicks can confirm into grabs, which is nice since D-throw has pretty low knockback growth making it a good choice to land Fairs even at higher percents.

Thank you for having something more conclusive to say about him from v0.9b to Beta; I feel like I've waited years!

The Bomberman still packs a wallop till today!

I main him now and never looked back. Those nerfs mentioned earlier are very true, but seems we're glossing over just how deadly that bomb hitstun is. He's definitely a character for a player with a specific playstyle, but quick throw at low percentages can usually confirm into a grab --> into two more quick throw bombs ---> into another down grab --> into one quick throw --> bomb kick --> detonate. 50% combo that isn't guaranteed but pretty hard to get out of unless you're extra floaty.

Bomb throw upwards (though the controls are wonky) and bomb throw downwards are godsends against anyone trying to rush because of that hitstun. Aerial bomb kick, which again needs to be re-worked because if I get one more bomb sent BACKWARDS instead of forward I'm gonna , has great range. Bomb kick in general is extremely potent on grounded bombs because the hitbox is staggering with more bombs in the kick, plus the hitstun will confirm into detonation unless you're at crazy high percentages.

And the bombermans ground game revolves around down tilt and neutral aerial. Combine those two moves with the aforementioned bomb hitstuns and you're facing a character which can knock you backwards or off the stage. And ANYTIME you are knocked away from a good Bomberman, 10/10 he's already charging up for a P-bomb for the next setup. Never really had any problems with any character online besides Megaman and that's because I didn't know the matchup whatsoever.

He's definitely not low-tier, but he's not high tier because of how bad he is offstage and the playstyle needed to maximize his potential is essentially non-Melee (meaning it's not combo combo combo, it's setup wait detonate punish). Bomberman is a character that usually has matches lasting 5+ minutes. Lots of people just quit before finishing casual games, but that's evident you're playing him right.

I mean, sure... but then it becomes a problem when the bombs can get punched to nothingness

I like him for what he is now, but I still stand that he just got worse compared to 0.9b

Aight, so time for my analysis:

Bomberman did get quite a bit worse from 9b. That's a given and anyone who states otherwise probably needs to go play 9b again. He's much more oriented towards being a midrange zoner who benefits from good stage control, however, it's the kind of mindgame that Bomberman has when he's on the stage. The guy can force 50-50s, albeit less rewarding than most, by placing a bomb onstage. It's true that his throw combos are a lot less deadly then they were in 9b and I'm not trying to hype Bomberman up to be a sleeper top or high tier, the character performs kinda a** in the meta and he's not getting much in the way of representation and his recovery is garbage.

Now, people tell me that his bombs have terrible range, but...


His neutral is fine, the addition of bombs make his neutral a lot better as his bombs combo into themselves from a bomb throw, however the nerfs to his punish game and his already poor offstage game do not help this character. Additionally, with the addition of all these swordies who outrange Bomberman, I feel he loses on that front.

So, I'd probably say Bomberman lies within the Bottom 11-13 range. Whilst his tools have got much better, Bomberman lost some important positive matchups (Fox) and is being left behind in a metagame that doesn't favour him as much as 9b did. Still viable, but nowhere near as good as he used to be. At this stage, he's not a good character.

Oh, and seeing as this is a tier list discussion thread, I'll leave this here:

^
Remember when was the most annoying character to find online?
hehehe

I think we can all agree that Stage Control Tools were nerfed

Bomberman's Bombs, Naruto's Up-B Clone, and now we're getting Pac's, arguably, best tool removed

HOW DARE YOU SPEAK OF 'S UNHOLY UP-B?!

Which of Pac's tools is getting removed?

Z Drop Galaxian was getting removed iirc