data meaning data on character performance, not stats

and actually it's been repeatedly proven that the worst characters in the game do not have the tools to perform well against good players

but that theory steven is talking about has been disproven multiple times by lower tiers winning too
that's all i've been trying to say from the beginning

but hey, if link is as terrible as you say he is, i'll stop using him

just for you

the worst characters don't win major tournaments. they never have and never will. they don't even win single matches against decent players most of the time even with the sizable advantage in matchup knowledge.

Here's some data. you can see that even with local tournaments included where the caliber of play is much lower, bad characters almost never place in the money. at big tournaments they never place in the money at all.

you can use whoever you want, just don't try pretend that they're better than everyone thinks they are based on this. I like playing bad characters too but that doesn't mean I have to think they're good

psycho, have you ever stopped to think that you're not being taken seriously and thus your argument is flawed because you're proclaiming a bottom tier character to be "good"?

your character performance means no more than anyone else's. as a matter of fact, it's pretty clear that this is one of the thing that back room members (aka people who arrange and analyze tiers) are trying to avoid. skill alone does not always make up for a character's major shortcomings, especially when the character is bad enough to be almost completely useless against a competent opponent.

Long story short go to SmashWiki and read the article about 'tiers'.

Just because you achieved 15 seconds of fame with someone like Ganondorf or Link doesn't mean the tier theory is directly disproven.

i play as metal night online all the time but i don't beat anyone

obviuosly tires don exits

OKAY I GET IT
but im just talking based on experience for the umpteenth time



i mean there was two other people telling me basically the same thing but yeah we could use a third



I read that a while ago

tiers just get me angry man

lmao what

why

Favoritism.

Psycho, just cool it. I've been trying to argue that Link is much better than most characters (Which he is in SSB64) for years now, and it's gotten him nowhere.

Everyone, it's like this. In Melee, Pikachu sucks and could be rated worse than a lot of characters in a split second, while Kirby could just as easily go to a high position, and Fox could be where Link is and Link where Fox is. Marth could at the least be 2nd or first on the tier list. Marth has the perfect match-ups, had it not been for less people playing as him. Captain Falcon has weak, hard to land attacks which aren't really that effective since he is a close range character. He has horrible match-ups with characters with long range abilities. His running doesn't help, it hinders. That is why he should be one of the bottom in Melee, and that's also why he is one of the bottom in Brawl.

In Super Smash Bros. 64, Yoshi should EASILY have poor match-ups against Samus or Luigi. Mario is just horrible against Luigi. DK is one of the worst characters one can play with due to THE SLOWEST f*** ATTACKS IN THE GAME! Kirby is nowhere NEAR where he is supposed to be. He should be at least 11. Ness should be #2, and Pikachu at #9. Link has really great match-ups making him number 1, BUT people don't spend time MASTERING AND PERFECTING him, making him go lower.

In Brawl, Snake should be #1. True story, a friend kicked literally everyone's a** in an SSB Tournament at his college with Snake. About half of the competitors were Meta Knight players of equal strength. HOW IS SONIC #22?! His speed and attacks are just the worst. He has horrible ground AND air game, his FS is hard to control, short range attacks, and most of all, his special attacks are useless. Lucas is much better than Ness, Link and Toon Link are at least the same, Marth needs to be #2, Meta Knight needs to be #5, and finally, of all the characters needing a good rank, it's Ike. He has tremendous power and average attack speed. He needs to have at least #8

Because he's really not.

best way to prove a character is better than people think is to go to tournaments and win against good players with him

theorycrafting is interesting but it's not going to undermine years of data

Hey, look at the edited thing I wrote.

Seriously? There must be something loose up there, if you think this is true.

Look, just say you like Link and leave it at that, your arguments arent going anywhere. And they certainly arent gonna change anything unless, like its been said, you win tournaments with him against skilled players using higher tiered characters.

Or unless you discover some new variable that wasnt used before, as thats the only ways a character will change positions on the list.

They equal each other out.

Link has powerful and above-average speed attacks.
Toon Link has weak, but very fast attacks.

Link has fast Special Attacks that are weak.
Toon Link has slow, yet powerful Special attacks.

One is heavier, but he has a better chance of attack.
One is lighter, but he has a worse chance of attack.

One is slower, yet he uses more power.
One is faster, but uses less power.