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Fox 
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
I don't think Fox will be top tier as long as there are characters that can zero-death him.

While I know what you are getting at, this isn't necessarily true. If we look at Melee's tier list, the top spots are Fox/Falco, both characters that get utterly destroyed by combos. One particular aspect that gets both of them so high on the tier list is their pressure exerted on stage. Fox in this game does not exert nearly as much pressure as he did in Melee, although him getting crushed by combos has remained the same. If the devs put Falco into this game, as long as they kept Falco's kit somewhat how it has been in the past, he would be above Fox in the tier list for sure because he could exert stage control better with lasers and much scarier combos. Man, I want Falco in this game lol.
Back to my point, if Fox had better ways to exert stage pressure he could rise to S-tier for sure, instead of being a solid A-tier. He already does this well with speed and safe approaches, but if his combos were to be made even better then he would rise on the tier list.

Other than the bair change, what I want changed to Fox is his jab. You can't combo into anything with it, if you hit a CPU with it they always hit you back. After doing some training mode, I tested using the combo counter on Jigglypuff. Jab->utilt doesn't start comboing until ~170%! It has next to zero hitstun until extremely high percents. I don't know about speeding up the animation, but a little bit more base KB and maybe some scaling would be nice. Although buffered shine combos after jab, usually they are out of range for the shine to work.

As for reducing his jumpsquat, there is some merit as his jumpsquat in this game is 3 frames @ 30 fps, so this would be like 6 frames @ 60 fps. Fox's jumpsquat in Melee is 3 frames @ 60 fps, so he is twice as slow for getting into the air. Speeding up his initial crouch animation would make him faster, harder to play, and closer to his past form. However, doing this would make him harder (both good and bad), he would JC faster meaning that all of his shine-related techniques become even faster, since his jump animation is faster that means most of his oos options are faster, like shine oos and aerials oos. These things might push him over the top into ridiculousness. After a bit of testing, frame perfect multishines beat buffered roll because they hit the opponent as they roll. But, as for shine oos, it would come out one frame before his shieldgrab could. Nair/bair oos would both be frame 4 instead of frame 5, tying for his grab in terms of speed.
Frame Breakdown for Those Interested: show
Frame 1: Shine hits shield. Inherent hitlag.
F2: Hitlag
F3: Hitlag
F4: Jumpsquat for Fox, opponent in shieldstun
F5: jumpsquat for Fox, opponent in shieldstun
F6: jumpsquat for Fox*, opponent no longer in shieldstun and buffered rolls come out on this frame.
F7: buffered shine comes out, hits opponent in roll startup

*If the jumpsquat was one frame faster, the next shine would actually come out here. He would hit his opponent anyways.

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Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:13 am
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Can anyone tell me how to cancel Side-B? Cause I always cancel it by accident if I try to recover and if I try to cancel it onstage, I SD. Is this random?

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Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:50 am
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Skailler wrote:
Can anyone tell me how to cancel Side-B? Cause I always cancel it by accident if I try to recover and if I try to cancel it onstage, I SD. Is this random?

Press the special button again before Fox starts moving. Tadaaaaaaaaaaa

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Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:34 pm
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Just wondering how on earth you're supposed to recover against Marth. His fsmash can destroy you if you're trying to sweetspot the ledge, and if you manage to Illusion through him, it doesn't stun him long enough for him to not turn around and fsmash you into oblivion. Eh, I'm just so sick of Marths right now. He's difficult enough to fight on stage, and as soon as you're off you don't really have any options. Such a bad MU since the patch.

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Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:44 pm
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sparty88 wrote:
Just wondering how on earth you're supposed to recover against Marth. His fsmash can destroy you if you're trying to sweetspot the ledge, and if you manage to Illusion through him, it doesn't stun him long enough for him to not turn around and fsmash you into oblivion. Eh, I'm just so sick of Marths right now. He's difficult enough to fight on stage, and as soon as you're off you don't really have any options. Such a bad MU since the patch.

Even in the console games marth can flowchart edgeguard space animals. Up throw->uair also doesn't combo so Fox can't get his guaranteed punishes. Shine doesn't spike as hard either, Marth has an easy time recovering from it. As for recovering, I can't suggest much other than going high, side-b, and then shorten (or just try using shorten more often). When you get the ledge tho you don't get actionable invincibility so it can be super hard to get back up. You can up-b horizontally into some platforms, and it will cancel so you don't have to wait for it to finish. this has minimal lag and you keep some momentum, almost like a wavedash.

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Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:20 pm
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Match between me and Kilos, both of us kinda capitalized on punishes this game lol.

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Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:44 am
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SoldierSunday wrote:
[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s4j5kvcygU& ]
Match between me and Kilos, both of us kinda capitalized on punishes this game lol.


sick game

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Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:37 am
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Fox has a lot of speed both in attack and running. But he is not as fast as Sonic. But he is stronger.


Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:30 am

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Is it me, or is Fox vs. Falcon like the worse match-up for Fox (or maybe even in the game)? Dtilt is like the perfect juggle tool because of how high Fox's fall-speed is. Falcon overall has priority to challenge Fox's. Falcon can goes way off stage to stop an recovery attempt by Fox. And he can chain-grab Fox with all four of his throws. I know it's been bad before for Fox, but dang, it seems crazy now.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:54 pm
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I think Fox has a lot going for him in this matchup: combos on Falcon that rival Falcon's on Fox and shinespikes wreck Falcon's recovery. I see it as close to equal.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:10 pm
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Zalozis wrote:
Is it me, or is Fox vs. Falcon like the worse match-up for Fox (or maybe even in the game)? Dtilt is like the perfect juggle tool because of how high Fox's fall-speed is. Falcon overall has priority to challenge Fox's. Falcon can goes way off stage to stop an recovery attempt by Fox. And he can chain-grab Fox with all four of his throws. I know it's been bad before for Fox, but dang, it seems crazy now.


i personally find sonic to be foxes worst matchup, i feel so helpless in that matchup.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:07 pm
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Marth, MK, Yoshi, and Sheik give me the most trouble. Marth and Yoshi on FD, 3DS, or ToS are especially lame.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:59 pm

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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
I think Fox has a lot going for him in this matchup: combos on Falcon that rival Falcon's on Fox and shinespikes wreck Falcon's recovery. I see it as close to equal.
It's kind of not. Fox has to work for those setups, even if it's just a little bit of work.

But for Falcon, if the player sells their soul to E-sports; one grab can equal a lost stock for Fox, very easily.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:01 pm
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fox players look at what falcon does and it's all pretty linear.
falcon players look at what fox players have to do to win and there are so many more options for things that it makes it harder to tell what he's gonna do next.
both characters are alo good at equally beating each other to death
idk who wins the MU more, but I'm just saying stuff based on past experiences of playing SS in the MU for a huge portion of my SSF2 career online lol.

I do, however, feel a bit safer playing as falcon than I do playing as fox in this MU lol


Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:18 pm
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TacThree wrote:
fox players look at what falcon does and it's all pretty linear.
falcon players look at what fox players have to do to win and there are so many more options for things that it makes it harder to tell what he's gonna do next.
both characters are alo good at equally beating each other to death
idk who wins the MU more, but I'm just saying stuff based on past experiences of playing SS in the MU for a huge portion of my SSF2 career online lol.

I do, however, feel a bit safer playing as falcon than I do playing as fox in this MU lol

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Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:12 pm
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