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Starkiller
SSF2 Developer
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:47 pm Posts: 2316 Location: BC Country:
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: Complacency breeds weakness. My opponents won't stop getting stronger, neither will I.
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While I know what you are getting at, this isn't necessarily true. If we look at Melee's tier list, the top spots are Fox/Falco, both characters that get utterly destroyed by combos. One particular aspect that gets both of them so high on the tier list is their pressure exerted on stage. Fox in this game does not exert nearly as much pressure as he did in Melee, although him getting crushed by combos has remained the same. If the devs put Falco into this game, as long as they kept Falco's kit somewhat how it has been in the past, he would be above Fox in the tier list for sure because he could exert stage control better with lasers and much scarier combos. Man, I want Falco in this game lol. Back to my point, if Fox had better ways to exert stage pressure he could rise to S-tier for sure, instead of being a solid A-tier. He already does this well with speed and safe approaches, but if his combos were to be made even better then he would rise on the tier list. Other than the bair change, what I want changed to Fox is his jab. You can't combo into anything with it, if you hit a CPU with it they always hit you back. After doing some training mode, I tested using the combo counter on Jigglypuff. Jab->utilt doesn't start comboing until ~170%! It has next to zero hitstun until extremely high percents. I don't know about speeding up the animation, but a little bit more base KB and maybe some scaling would be nice. Although buffered shine combos after jab, usually they are out of range for the shine to work. As for reducing his jumpsquat, there is some merit as his jumpsquat in this game is 3 frames @ 30 fps, so this would be like 6 frames @ 60 fps. Fox's jumpsquat in Melee is 3 frames @ 60 fps, so he is twice as slow for getting into the air. Speeding up his initial crouch animation would make him faster, harder to play, and closer to his past form. However, doing this would make him harder (both good and bad), he would JC faster meaning that all of his shine-related techniques become even faster, since his jump animation is faster that means most of his oos options are faster, like shine oos and aerials oos. These things might push him over the top into ridiculousness. After a bit of testing, frame perfect multishines beat buffered roll because they hit the opponent as they roll. But, as for shine oos, it would come out one frame before his shieldgrab could. Nair/bair oos would both be frame 4 instead of frame 5, tying for his grab in terms of speed. Frame Breakdown for Those Interested: show Frame 1: Shine hits shield. Inherent hitlag. F2: Hitlag F3: Hitlag F4: Jumpsquat for Fox, opponent in shieldstun F5: jumpsquat for Fox, opponent in shieldstun F6: jumpsquat for Fox*, opponent no longer in shieldstun and buffered rolls come out on this frame. F7: buffered shine comes out, hits opponent in roll startup
*If the jumpsquat was one frame faster, the next shine would actually come out here. He would hit his opponent anyways.
_________________Men that are trapped by the chains of "maybe" can never reach their dreams! The weak are washed away by the tides of fate. The strong drink it up. No matter the man, we all wear masks. Whether it be over our faces or over our hearts.Youtube: NinjaLobsterStudios Stream: twitch.tv/ninjalobster
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Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:13 am |
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TSF|Cookies
BR Member
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:33 pm Posts: 2002 Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: TSF|Cookies
Currently Playing: PM, Melee, Ultimate, Hollow Knight
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Can anyone tell me how to cancel Side-B? Cause I always cancel it by accident if I try to recover and if I try to cancel it onstage, I SD. Is this random?
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Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:50 am |
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Starkiller
SSF2 Developer
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:47 pm Posts: 2316 Location: BC Country:
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: Complacency breeds weakness. My opponents won't stop getting stronger, neither will I.
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Press the special button again before Fox starts moving. Tadaaaaaaaaaaa
_________________Men that are trapped by the chains of "maybe" can never reach their dreams! The weak are washed away by the tides of fate. The strong drink it up. No matter the man, we all wear masks. Whether it be over our faces or over our hearts.Youtube: NinjaLobsterStudios Stream: twitch.tv/ninjalobster
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Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:34 pm |
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sparty88
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:30 am Posts: 510 Location: Michigan Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: sparty88
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Just wondering how on earth you're supposed to recover against Marth. His fsmash can destroy you if you're trying to sweetspot the ledge, and if you manage to Illusion through him, it doesn't stun him long enough for him to not turn around and fsmash you into oblivion. Eh, I'm just so sick of Marths right now. He's difficult enough to fight on stage, and as soon as you're off you don't really have any options. Such a bad MU since the patch.
_________________.png) Please...
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Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:44 pm |
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Starkiller
SSF2 Developer
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:47 pm Posts: 2316 Location: BC Country:
Gender: Male
Currently Playing: Complacency breeds weakness. My opponents won't stop getting stronger, neither will I.
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Even in the console games marth can flowchart edgeguard space animals. Up throw->uair also doesn't combo so Fox can't get his guaranteed punishes. Shine doesn't spike as hard either, Marth has an easy time recovering from it. As for recovering, I can't suggest much other than going high, side-b, and then shorten (or just try using shorten more often). When you get the ledge tho you don't get actionable invincibility so it can be super hard to get back up. You can up-b horizontally into some platforms, and it will cancel so you don't have to wait for it to finish. this has minimal lag and you keep some momentum, almost like a wavedash.
_________________Men that are trapped by the chains of "maybe" can never reach their dreams! The weak are washed away by the tides of fate. The strong drink it up. No matter the man, we all wear masks. Whether it be over our faces or over our hearts.Youtube: NinjaLobsterStudios Stream: twitch.tv/ninjalobster
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Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:20 pm |
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SoldierSunday
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:23 pm Posts: 913 Location: Elgin, Illinois Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: SoldierSunday
Skype: soldiersunday
Currently Playing: Super Smash Flash 2
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Match between me and Kilos, both of us kinda capitalized on punishes this game lol.
_________________http://www.twitch.tv/soldiersunday < My stream link, stop by sometime! " You know what neither Melee nor Brawl have ? Controller input history in training mode." - 228zip, 2013
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Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:44 am |
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Jammy
BR Member
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:08 am Posts: 888 Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Jammy
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_________________ Youtube Twitch <insert giant anime gif here>
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Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:37 am |
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135
SSF2 Developer
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:02 pm Posts: 1147
Gender: Male
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Fox has a lot of speed both in attack and running. But he is not as fast as Sonic. But he is stronger.
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:30 am |
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Z A L O
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:46 pm Posts: 1514 Location: Westchester, New York Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Zalozis Zemsis
Skype: ZaloZemsis
Currently Playing: Gundam Wing: Endless Dual | Melty Blood: Actress Again Current Code | Super Smash Bros. Brawl
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Is it me, or is Fox vs. Falcon like the worse match-up for Fox (or maybe even in the game)? Dtilt is like the perfect juggle tool because of how high Fox's fall-speed is. Falcon overall has priority to challenge Fox's. Falcon can goes way off stage to stop an recovery attempt by Fox. And he can chain-grab Fox with all four of his throws. I know it's been bad before for Fox, but dang, it seems crazy now.
_________________Luigi Movement, Cancel, Tech, etc. SSF2 Google Drive". . . Emphasis . . . of players helping one-another"
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:54 pm |
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TheCodeSamurai
BR Member
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:14 pm Posts: 2075 Country:
Gender: Anime Girl
Currently Playing: SSF2, MGS 3, Melee, Project M
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I think Fox has a lot going for him in this matchup: combos on Falcon that rival Falcon's on Fox and shinespikes wreck Falcon's recovery. I see it as close to equal.
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:10 pm |
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Bomono
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:40 am Posts: 151 Location: Oak Harbor Washington Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Bomono3
Skype: Bomono3 or bomono
Currently Playing: Some platformer
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i personally find sonic to be foxes worst matchup, i feel so helpless in that matchup.
_________________That picture is my face when i sd in a edgegaurd attempt. My main is tails. My secondaries are peach and fox. My soundcloud (no relation to other accounts of the same name, its a long story) https://soundcloud.com/caffinluvstmgc
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:07 pm |
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TheCodeSamurai
BR Member
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:14 pm Posts: 2075 Country:
Gender: Anime Girl
Currently Playing: SSF2, MGS 3, Melee, Project M
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Marth, MK, Yoshi, and Sheik give me the most trouble. Marth and Yoshi on FD, 3DS, or ToS are especially lame.
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:59 pm |
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Z A L O
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:46 pm Posts: 1514 Location: Westchester, New York Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Zalozis Zemsis
Skype: ZaloZemsis
Currently Playing: Gundam Wing: Endless Dual | Melty Blood: Actress Again Current Code | Super Smash Bros. Brawl
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It's kind of not. Fox has to work for those setups, even if it's just a little bit of work. But for Falcon, if the player sells their soul to E-sports; one grab can equal a lost stock for Fox, very easily.
_________________Luigi Movement, Cancel, Tech, etc. SSF2 Google Drive". . . Emphasis . . . of players helping one-another"
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:01 pm |
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TacThree
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:28 am Posts: 2796 Location: Los Angeles & San Luis Obispo, California Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: TAC3
Skype: Trey_Cahalan
Currently Playing: SSF2, League of Legends, Steam Games
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fox players look at what falcon does and it's all pretty linear. falcon players look at what fox players have to do to win and there are so many more options for things that it makes it harder to tell what he's gonna do next. both characters are alo good at equally beating each other to death idk who wins the MU more, but I'm just saying stuff based on past experiences of playing SS in the MU for a huge portion of my SSF2 career online lol.
I do, however, feel a bit safer playing as falcon than I do playing as fox in this MU lol
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Sat Dec 20, 2014 9:18 pm |
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Jammy
BR Member
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:08 am Posts: 888 Country:
Gender: Male
MGN Username: Jammy
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DTHROW TECHCHASE INTENSIFIES
_________________ Youtube Twitch <insert giant anime gif here>
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Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:12 pm |
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