Sandbag has down-B and side-B to recover without taking damage, and he can kill you at 40%: I think that puts him above the bottom.

Yea the distance isn't the problem, the safety is. Since then it makes his recovery 100x more predictable and once he gets one down-b or a couple of side-bs or whatever then gets hit out of it, it will be a lot more troublesome for him to recover. And he will kill you at 60% but he lacks anything in neutral for him to get to such a percent before he dies since he is so awful at securing stocks.

He has a fine neutral: what do you mean? Down-B to fair is ridiculously fast from the air, and you can mix up direction. (You can also mix up down-B direction when recovering as well.) Almost all of his aerials are really fast, and dair and fair kill really quickly. He also regains down-B when being hit, so he can do it over and over again.

I know I haven't played that much, but just a few first impressions that differ from other people:

- I think he is clearly the worst in the game. Up tilt is outright terrible, not much in the way of actual kill moves aside from smashes and fair spike... He needs a rework of some kind. Perhaps a resprite is incoming?

- Overall he seems worse than other characters until you take the bombs into consideration. Yes, there's cool set ups you can do and stage control, but it takes time to pull off and can be worked around, while the rest of his kit being average at best makes it easy for opponents to deal with him otherwise. He's not bad, just... not much good, either.

- I don't think he's as bad as people say. He seems like a watered down Bayonetta, which isn't a bad thing at all. Combo potential, decent set ups into kill moves... He's no Fox, but still pretty damn good (and even then, Sora has tools that Fox doesn't have like projectile combos and a third jump).

What I mean isn't that his neutral is bad. It just isn't "great" or consistent enough for a character like sandbag. And given that he only has 1 or 2 shots in neutral, that gives him some problematic matchups.

I haven't tried this online, but sandbag can kill at 0% on level 9 CPUs. (killing himself in the process)

Generally you want to check in training mode whether or not its guaranteed. Since level 9 CPUs have issues in their AI regarding DIing and other factors. Killing himself in the process is a bit gimmicky and I wouldn't consider it to be anything to make it groundbreaking unless hes a stock ahead which is rather rare.

Sandbag could climb high, but the fact that he's a giant rectangular hitbox with rather clunky movement makes projectile MUs a challenge, and he probably is the worst affected by stage counterpicks since he cannot grab ledge and overhangs can very easily end a stock from Up-B even at modest percentages.

Small note not specific to just Sandbag, but I've noticed some characters feel a little choppy in terms of animation and landing lag. I've noticed it more and more with Bowser with his jumpsquat, Fair, Nair (not sure if these were tweaked since release). And Zelda a bit. It's not so much a landing lag frame issue as the characters just not feeling as smooth as others, even slower characters. Anyone else notice this or am I a baddy being bad? Sandbag feels particularly offensive here since he has like no limbs/bones that move during attacks.

(repost from thread)

I did not know that can grab you right after he hits you with dair. I just got bodied by a bowser in a tourney today (sadly 1st round, but it was to a really good player imo).

His range is really good too, i'm not saying he's the best in game, but my question is, why are some people dropping him again? If he's not good to be a main, he imo is at-least a very good character to counter pick with.

But anyway, him being able to grab you right after a dair was a surprise to me lol.

My current tier list based on personal experience and other player's opinions/videos/input.

S-tier - pros vastly outweigh cons; no MUs worse than 50-50


A-tier - pros well exceed cons; a few notable poor MUs


B-tier - pros still outweigh cons, but cons are exploitable, creating more poor/even MUs



C-tier - "balanced" pros and cons; a wide spread of good/bad MUs



D-tier - cons outweigh pros; will struggle against high/mid tiers



E-tier - crippling flaws or little positives to compete with

Some general notes:

I wanted to be clear in how I labeled each category, so people have an idea of what the criteria for placement was.

I tried to keep the cast as condensed in a "middle band" as possible, making S-tier and E-tier (and D-tier, really) exclusive places for exclusive characters.

Now for some thoughts on what may seem as contentious placements:

: There are 3 things that put Falco here but not Fox. 1.) Laser has hit stun; this adds a whole new dimension to Falco's play that Fox just doesn't have -- zoning/harass. This let's Falco perform much better against certain characters that Fox may struggle with in neutral. 2.) Better jump height. This helps with combos to close stocks and recovery to compensate for a shorter Up-B. 3.) Dair gimping. This enables Falco to edge guard more efficiently than Fox, gaining earlier stocks on characters with poor recoveries.

: He's in a great spot with how his bombs operates and available combos/kill confirms. His recovery feels more reliable as well. In v0.9b, he was very close to A-tier; the changes he got definitely pushed him there.

: Lack of disjoints and slower frame data are all that holds him back from being A-tier. It makes MUs against a lot of top tiers challenging, especially rush down characters with disjoints (Lloyd in particular)

: Wittle arms, light weight, and none of Bandana Dee's positives makes Kirby effectively his worse half. He has few tools to work with in neutral and can die early.

: His aerial moves are just awkward to use defensively (especially Nair). He is predictable in approach/recovery and can struggle to kill outside of some very predictable options. Despite great combos and some good frame data on the ground, he can't do much when threatened in the air, which is a huge drawback.

: He's placed here purely because of recovery being a liability. Recovering low is extremely challenging so Falco landing Dair is a killer among a multitude of other semispike tools a vast part of the cast has in one way or another. Great combos, but being offstage is a huge liability to his character, becoming an extremely exploitable flaw that will be the target of every top tier he (it?) faces.

If there's an explanation you want that I didn't give, ask for it! I'm open to feedback in this list.

Haven't experienced any issues using Sora's N-Air defensively, I thought it wasn't that bad. Maybe I'm just not meeting the right criteria or don't get it. I'm probably better at Sora than I am Ichigo.

You can't SHFFL with it because the TTS (time to start) is a little long and the first hit is actually unsafe on hit. So in a situation where you don't reliably connect the 2nd hit (and I think the back hit is also unsafe on hit in certain situations) you're actually punishing yourself using the move. And the coverage is slim compared to the rest of his aerials, which aren't terribly better since his air control is modest and his blade length is short.

Also discovered that for certain characters (particularly fast-fallers) side-B+upward finish is unsafe on hit, which takes away a big combo option.

*NOTE*: I would like more lab testing to confirm all this, so please take it with a grain of salt if I'm wrong. Can someone confirm this that has more vested interest in Sora??

Would the same fall *rimshot* for Side-B+Down followed by a F-Air? That's one of the most solid ways to kill that I've found.

EDIT: Tried it for myself, seems to only works on low percentages w/o teching.

Things I disagree with:
Shouldn't be in his own tier imo. He is an amazing character and has great tools but he still has not able flaws such as his recovery not traveling far and being combo food. Though he still could be the best.

Should be A tier Imo. Despite Up air being nerfed, he still has amazing tools. His Side special stops approaches and is good for edgeguarding, Neural Special can set up kills, Nair has riducously low end lag, F-tilt has good range and is disjointed, and D-tilt lasts a long time. The only real weakness Isaac has is that his recovery is gimpable.

Is nowhere near high tier imo. At best he's C tier. Sure, he does have great damage output and great kill power, bt his frame data is awful, he has high landing on his aerials compared to the whole cast. He also gets comboed very hard, you can easily rack up up to 50% or more damage on Bowser. Also his recovery has mediocre dsance and get easily get gimped.

Isn't top 10 imo just because of the fact that she sturggles hard at killimg.

I don't see how should be below . has a better grab than , has better range on his moves, and more reliabe kill options.

I think should be placed a few spaces lower. His extended hurtbox in his moves REALLY hinder him.

I'll agree with your explanation with (Though I feel like he should only be in the top of C tier at max) due to some major issues that will inevitably be exploited in the future in top level play. I also agree with 's explanation along with maybe falco's. is fine where he is, a lot of his useful moves have slow a** frame data where if the opponent knows the matchup then Isaac can seriously have a hard time actually hitting the opponent without gambling so much since he depends a lot on active frames. But where he is is still fine thanks to River's amazing performances lately. But it may drop in the future when more people learn to fight Isaac. However, is fine where she is. She still has the best neutral in the game and has the safest options in the game so she can at least get the opponent to kill percent in a good amount of time without having to risk much which is a good compensation. 's frame data sounds pretty bad in theory, but in practice its actually not that bad, in fact it can even be debateably above average depending on how you look at it. And he still has plenty of safe options, scary super armor, his recovery is actually fine since theres a lot of hitboxes surrounding him and he has a bit of invincibility in certain parts of his recovery unlike *ahem* . Not to mention that he has one of the best grab games in Beta.

Over here are my questions for some of the Manta's placements:

I feel like should be much higher... but DEFINENTLY out of bottom 5 and 10. While she is in the "Lack of Range" club. She still possesses fantastic projectiles for getting followups safely and for potential camping, can apply pressure to opponents very well, a fantastic horizontal recovery and one of the best air mobility in the game thanks to floating, and she simply has a lot of options to make a semi-rushdown/aerial character.

should be in the bottom of A tier. While I too think that is an underrated character that people simply place low just because. But I don't know how I should feel about him almost making top 5. And I feel like a lot of characters below him in A tier might be more influential in the current metagame compared to and they simply have more overwhelming strengths in general. But 's fantastic stage control and tools/options are definently good enough to be around A Tier. But just place him below .

I don't think that should be top 5. She simply has a lot of problems in neutral which will make it hard for her to use her tools consistently. I'd place her just a couple of spots lower though. I'd probably swap her out with tbh.

should be moved up to either the bottom of B tier or the middle of B tier. While the yellow mouse got nerfed from 0.9b. He still has excellent frame data, great mobility making him a solid rushdown character, a fantastic recovery, an overall great neutral, lots of options for approaching, and a very solid edge guarding game. While he certainly is light, but that along with his small hurtbox at least makes him hard to combo which is also convenient in such a combo-based game such as SSF2 Beta. And his killpower may not be great, but he can at least rack up damage rather quick and he at least has kill options that are safe.

should at least be in C tier. He has a lot more issues in neutral compared to a character like bowser (Which means he'll be comboed more often), he lacks any projectiles for safe approaching, doesn't have any armor in his attacks, has a pretty bad recovery that lacks a vertical hitbox making it easy to meteor, he lacks a proper kill confirm (Unlike bowser who at least has "The Bow-Wow" (Up Throw to Up-Air) and has to depend on raw smash attacks or a lucky up-air from a juggle in order to kill. That simply makes his flaws a lot more polarizing compared to bowser while also lacking essential tools a heavy needs in order to be great in the metagame.

Explain 's and 's placement please?