Up Air is actually pretty good, but only for extending combos, and is one of the few reasons Kirby's combo game is amazing.

Currently my tier list for 1.0.3.2:

I personally think Ichigo is better than Tails. Ichigo's only weakness is having some moves with high startup, end lag, and landing lag. Maybe you can count his mediocre recovery but most characters cant even gimp it. Meanwhile Tails has 2 weaknesses: light weight and exploitable recovery.

Luffy and Kirby should swap. Luffy at least has good priority on him moves and has range. Kirby has one of if not the worst neutral in the entire game. Kirby's only useful moves in neutral are Bair and Nair. His only strengths are good combo game and great edgeguard game. Otherwise Kirby is flawed in almost every way. Even his best tools are easily beaten out by many moves. Inhale is also garbage and is overrated. Has high end lag and startup, spit to any aerial is actually not true despite popular belief, and many moves can easily beat it out. Kirby's only winning MUs are Luigi, Pac, and Naruto. Kirby gets easily camped out and walled by many characters. Luffy at least has the range to approach and has decent spacing tools even if it does extend his hurtbox.

I personally think Ness should be above Wario simply because disjoints.

Isaac is at least High tier imo. Stupid Nair that has low end and landing lag and is safe offstage, many moves have amazing range, has stupidly good tools in neutral, has many tools, and his only weaknesses are exploitable recovery and poor frame data.

Oh for f*ck sake people understand THERE NO GODDAMN WAY IS BETTER THAN

Bruh is upper high tier

there more than sufficient evidence that is top 10

Tail's access to seven jumps is great and the fact that there is no footstools in the game makes tail's recovery even better. Tails also has great horizontal options with B-Air and Side-B really helping tails out. Lightweight does make Tails harder to combo which isn't always a bad thing. Frame data and landing issues from ichigo is something that can be more exploited at top level play.

Luffy iirc does not have that great priority. The fact that he simply has worse matchups compared to kirby since at least kirby does well against some of the low tiers and okay against some of the low-mid and sometimes mid tiers. Luffy's weaknesses really hurt him in the long run in top level play compared to Kirby. Kirby at least has decent frame data to work with, a decent recovery that helps consistency (Though nothing to write home about), a small as hell hurtbox with a great crouch, fantastic edge guarding ability with the wall of pain, and some results from "ThatKirbyGuy" who is ranked #1 on Anther's Ladder and is known for taking out the likes of Kyoz as well (Though I wish he would enter a real tournament but whatever Anther's Ladder counts for a community as small as SSF2) and tlord who has been playing kirby more compared to luffy. Also the projectile changes also helped kirby a bit. And the fact that kirby gets a lot off of one neutral even if getting the neutral is hard is still not terrible, and not bottom 3 worthy. But Kirby is certainly bottom 5 though.

Ness may have range, but Ness now has weird landing issues, a recovery problem which renders Ness as pretty inconsistent compared to Wario who has a great recovery. Along with Ness just not being fast kinda REALLY hurts Ness. Wario is at least consistent with the occasional burst of Wario Waft which can give a great stock lead, and Wario is also fast on the air to make up for his range so at least Wario can approach. Also his neutral-b is one of the best ledge traps in the game and Wario can get a lot off of grabs. Its really only sword fighters that mostly hurt Wario, but he does okay against most rushdowns which is good.

Isaac is pretty overrated now, especially since RiVer left the SSF2 scene. Isaac has the worst frame data in game no joke, the fact that Isaac is so laggy pretty much means at higher levels of play the opponent can easily find openings in Isaac and punish greatly. Isaac still does terrible against rushdowns and quite a few characters above him especially the top tiers. Isaac is just dropping the more we learn the matchup. Oh yea and the fact that Isaac is open to hit while recovering also contributes towards Isaac being very prone towards punishes at all times compared to other characters, even offstage.



Game & Watch took a big hit with the 1.0.3 mechanic changes. Also his best spacing option (B-Air) now has hitstun problems, Bandana Dee has a more well rounded amount of defense options for a spacing-based character as Bandana Dee has better frame data and landing options along with a smaller hurt box to make Bandana Dee less punishable as a whole. Bandana Dee is also harder to combo compared to G&W since G&W gets combed normally because of his fall speed while he dies early. Bandana Dee also has the Fence of Pain which increases Bandana Dee's edge guarding ability compared to G&W's already pretty good edge guarding ability.

Already mentioned Isaac.

Chibi Robo is definently really good, but he struggles way too much against rushdowns and the characters above him to truly be top 10. Tho I'm a proud supporter of 20CR.

I'm surprised you have CF so high. IMO CF's recovery and tendency to get combo'd keeps him out of high tier. Ichigo is also mysteriously high; he's definitely top tier, but I feel like his end lag holds him back from the No. 2 spot. Powerful smash attacks are good, but speed is always preferable to power.

Solid tier list overall, though

Captain falcon has guaranteed Knee followups now in 1.0.3 which is pretty stupid. Ichigo may have some endlag issues on a couple of moves, but his most used moves have little to no legitament endlag along with the moves being safe on shield and having stupid amounts of range. Also if you did not know, Ichigo has the 9th fastest dash speed in the game so far, so theres that...

Falcon's always had knee confirms even when he wasnt good in 9b, his neutral is more why hes so good.

also literally the only laggy ichigo moves are smash attacks (that kill stupid early), bair (which is also strong), and uair (which is still one of the best anti airs in the game, on a character with many anti air moves anyway)

Yea for some reason I thought there were some indirect buffs from CF that made him stupidly good, but yea the neutral was something pretty noticeable. Oh yea Ichigo's Up-Air is actually pretty fast believe it or not, the startup is stupidly low and it doesn't have a ton of endlag so you can spam it like cloud's up-air.

why is kirby still so low

Poor grab range,slow and fairly vulnerable recovery (though long-distanced) , tendency to get walled out by disjoints and projectiles. I personally feel he should be a little higher due to his kickass combo game and Bair, but maybe I'm biased bc Kirby is one of my favorites. Definitely not high tier, though. Definitely.

While we're here, what do you guys think of Pit? I haven't seen much discussion of his placements, though I've usually seen him placed at about mid tier. Same goes for Isaac.

There isnt a whole lot to talk about Pit. Since similar to smash 4, its commonly agreed that Pit is just somewhere around Mid to High tier. Kind of hard to pinpoint where currently but anywhere around the range is widely accepted because of how Pit is designed. Isaac is probz Upper Mid tier or Mid-High tier now with his stupid vine to up-smash being less efficient and RiVer no longer playing SSF2. But Isaac still has that stupid trading system of his.

Idk why people are calling Kirby mid tier. Like about half of the people think Kirby is mid tier. Like what?
His only strengths are good combo game, good edgeguard game, and inhale if you want to count that.

And his weaknesses? BOY there are so many. He land land for s***, all of his moves are easy to survive via DI, aerial hammer and bair dont even kill at 120% half of the time because of it. He is light, has an exploitable recovery, has one of the worst neutrals in the game, gets easily walled by disjoints, gets camped hard, AWFUL air speed, and lacks range.

His options in neutral arent bad, but compared to most of the vast they arent amazing. Nair is disjoints and good for approaching via run then jump, Bair is BARELY disjointed and has okay range but gets beaten out easily. Inhale, oh boy, everyone says this move is so good but god its really not that good. I mean of course inhale is good but its slow startup and high end lag makes it underwhelming. People just dont know how to deal with inhale yet tbh. D-tilt is eh, fast, does 7%, low end lag, but isnt really amazing. Also Kirby needs grab in neutral which is VERY hard to get, harder in certain MUs. because Kirby usually will get rushed down, spaced out, or camped out, making it nearly impossible to land a grab WHICH HE NEEDS.

Kirby is really bad, and imo unviable. I cant wait for people to realize that

I agree with a lot if what you said. In my opinion, he's viable, but just barely. Bair is better than you say, and inhale, despite how badly you bashed it, in my opinion, is worse than you say. Spit>bair isn't true anymore, so it's no longer worthwile. Kirby is carried by his dash speed, crough/dtilt, fthrow, and bair.

I noticed how basically every in low mid has good combo potential but not many true followups. ???