Lloyd lost a lot of his grab range. Its pretty average now, nothing like Links grab.

Ichigo can Zero-Death chaingrab DK with his down throw.

You can tech to escape that.

Is it techable?
Oh.
Still, Ichigo can still tech chase or dash grab/dash-cancel grab to get the grab

basically; At least half>Chibi. At least... chibi cant really do good against most of the others.

Who voted for Goku .-.

How Goku even on this list? He's really good withouth even using Kaio-Ken. Ridiculous fast Neutral-air, a safe landing Dair, and wickedly quick platform mobility. Especially when combined with his float maneuvers.

Worst are definitely Kirby, Mega Man, Sonic. Ness is probably close. But I believe that's mostly because online nerfs him. He feels like he has a ton potential with DJC.

(keep in mind goku is my secondary lmao)


You have to have horizontal momentum for these to work. The most efficient way is to do a dair first then do downb or nspec. If I use Kamehameha to recover and I get hit with a meteor smash, I die. Goku has pitiful upward recovery and the Kamehameha trail won't follow me. It has more than 3 seconds of endlag, so the push isn't worth it most of the time - especially against anyone who can hit you downward. That brings us to downB, which is relatively safe, but is only useful for recovery if you tap it rather than hold it. This can (and usually does) leave you wide open due to the startup and endlag of each burst.


Speaking within reason, Goku has such terrible range and a projectile that is only useful for disruptions when fullhopped. Using a grounded sideb against anyone with a projectile will end up with Goku getting a face-full and probably being comboed out of the projectile. If he manages to get in, ftilt has too much startup to be useful unless you get a hard read, dtilt doesn't kill, his smashes are weaker than ftilt, and upB should only be used if you can't think of anything better to do in time. So, I would disagree with this. Especially since he can't combo into any of these moves.


Two big things here:
- His meteor smash isn't a real meteor smash
It has less hitstun than a normal meteor smash and doesn't hit straight down - it's a semispike. What does this mean? If you hit a character with that sweetspot and they aren't at kill percentage, by the time your endlag is over they'll probably have already hit you with something.

- His meteor smash is a terrible edgeguarding tool
It has a TEENY TINY sweetspot. If you land it on a floaty, kudos to you. It is nearly impossible to combo into at a percentage that it would do any good at. If you miss that sweetspot the opponent goes right in Goku's dead zone without enough power to KO, meaning you may be susceptible to being edgehogged or meteored yourself.


If he can get in, it's hard to stay in.
Goku's designed to be fast, yes, but he can't string together long combos and thus his attacks magnify his range issues. Typically with a character of this sort, you'll have the ability to combo a stock off once you get in. Look at Mario. Now look at Goku. Unless you tech chase or roll read someone with downB to get KK going, it's not going to happen.


Dthrow doesn't CG if DI'd correctly. The combo is fast enough where they may not notice it but yeah.

We basically have a jack-of-all-trades in Goku. He does a lot of things... spacing, comboing, zoning... but he doesn't excel in any category until you get a downB. If he didn't have Kaioken he would be a flat out bad character. However when you go Kaioken, you get EASILY the best character in the game - but with a heavy penalty. With the high damage rate and the unfortunate carry-over of the huge hurt animation, Kaioken can easily blow up in your face if you don't keep that combo going. Goku is not S tier. Goku is probably not A tier either.