His main edgeguard tool is Meteo, but it's viability in general was reduced because you can't angle it anymore

On that note, Black Mage is considered to have one of the worst neutrals in the game so how in the world can you get the opponent off stage anyway?

Don't say it Raven, he's just exaggerating. Tell yourself he's trolling if it helps yo-
AAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHH I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!
IS HIGH TIER I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU SAY!!!

f*** dio stop skipping leg day

Tbh I think Black Mage isn't THAT bad. Black Mage has of course disjoints, which are probably one of the most desirable traits to have in the current metagame. Black Mage despite a pretty below average neutral due to his poor mobility can still rack up a ton of damage and his edge guarding game is still prominent with or without the meteor nerf. Black Mage also has pretty decent frame data which compliments his disjoints well. His kill power isn't great, but at least its reliable thanks to his ability for a kill throw and even with poor grab range its not like hes commiting or anything *cough cough* Pac-Man *cough cough*. I personally believe that there are worse characters out there tbh. And we also have Drarky representing Black Mage as well. So probably not bottom 5 for now.

I'd say bottom 10, not the worse and can still edgeguard really well, but lacking in the neutral so the edgeguard opportunities won't arise as often as some other characters

just for the sake of putting it out there, the only real nerf to meteor at least to me was its kb, which was reduced tremendously. It's still great in neutral and confirms to a ton of things on hit due to the slightly faster FAF

idk why Jan keeps ragging on about meteor angles, i was for a time considered the best BM in 9b and i literally never cared for it.

BM just relies on playing more defensively now because he doesnt have the offensive pressure and insane combo game he used to have, which kinda sucks considering there are plenty of good characters that can break his walling even easier than they could in 9b.

He's defs around 11-9th worst in the game but he's nowhere near the likes of kirby yoshi and bdee

^
I was about to say thank you, but then you agreed that was low tier.
I honestly believe that is better than at least half of the current roster. But I guess at this point, nobody's gonna care about that as much as I do.

Bdee still isn't THAT bad imo. Sure Bandana Dee can't kill despite his somewhat reliable kill throw (Thankfully he doesn't commit whenever he grabs) and his survivability and recovery issues (But his horizontal recovery is good). Bdee similar to Black Mage has disjoints which again is a highly favorable traits. But better yet, Bdee has the ability to retreat from his disjointed attacks such as f-air, neutral-b, etc. This makes his attacks suprisingly really safe. Bdee has a decent neutral thanks to that ability giving him a great pressuring game along with having a short hurtbox to the point where it can seem mildly unfair. Bdee also has an amazing ability to force approaches which helps him a ton in a lot of matchups thanks to side-b along with side-b allowing for some decent overall follow-ups in general. Bdee also possesses a great wall of pain ability and a decent projectile despite neutral-b not being able to be charge cancelled. However neutral-b is fantastic for edge guarding either ways and it can be used to dish out early kills and it beats a lot of recoveries thanks to the odd priority system to projectiles in general. The main problem with bdee and the reason why people find him so "underwhelming" is the lack of representation, almost no one good plays bandana dee and no one really discovers any new thing with bdee in a similar fate to bomberman. Bdee in my opinion is in the bottom of Mid Tier because of this, he at least has a lot of desirably good traits in the current meta and his matchups aren't half bad either, but his flaws do prevent some consistency from happening so bottom of mid tier is accurate.

Bandana Dee is great when spacing Fair/side-B against approaches. But he's awful as soon as the opponent decides to stop approaching. He's kinda Kirby + disjoints (average disjoints, at that). His advantage state is... hard to really find. He can't pressure well, and DI hurts so many of his combos once you hit mid-percents. But, unlike Kirby, his recovery is pretty awful. And unlike Bomberman, he doesn't have an overly versatile projectile to build his game on + a kit that can kill as early as 70-80%.

I think I should clarify that I do not imply (although I think I mightht impying it) that BM meteo is the be all end all of his kit, what I mean is that Angled Meteo >>>> No Angle Meteo

Like, give me a situation where not being able to angle it is better, other than when it's the enemy doin it

but thats what side-b is for. It is great for forcing approaches and it punishes the opponent for not approaching. Bdee may not seem all that impressive since pretty much no one plays him to make things seem practical, but he has a lot of disjoints which are very much needed to make a good character and his matchups are half decent because of it, Bandana Dee's Down-Air is actually really good for combos and are GUARANTEED, he can guarantee down-air to up-smash and sometimes forward-smash guaranteed from 0 to mid-high percents, and falling down-air to back-air is a guaranteed kill confirm at higher percents on ALL of the cast including jigglypuff. Not to mention that D-air is a fantastic locking tool and jab can be used to mantain the lock along with f-air at times. Bandana dee's disjoints are really good given his hurtbox and despite his lightness, he is hard as hell to hit. Since disjoints have a stupidly broken priority system along with bdee having a shorthurtbox and best of all GOOD FRAME DATA and a decent projectile that may not be perfect, but is still a projectile nevertheless and is great for edge guarding. Not to mention that Bdee has a somewhat rewarding wall of pain and he can at least make back from a wall of pain thanks to his Up-B having great horizontal distance since horizontal recovery > vertical Recovery in terms of having the wall of pain. Bdee is of course light too making him really hard to combo in general making damage racking really hard to do on Bdee along with Bdee just being hard to hit in the first place and his disjoints just being able to beat a lot of stuff. Most people just seem underwhelmed with Bdee for some reason mostly because of how obscure he is, a similar case to Bomberman. But if more people actually played Bdee, his advantage state may be more noticeable.

^that, except neutral b projectile is lame in literally every situation, especially edge guarding, due to startup and launch angle being awful. Also, side-b is really slow for whatever reason and is thus almost useless for pressure, since fast chars can run up and stop it before Bdee throws the spear and short chars just run underneath the high throw trajectory. Or even worse, perfect shield it.

Also, could I recommend you use the enter key more dude

Alright, so seeing as people have come to me for Bandanna Dee knowledge, and I apparently seem to know my s*** about this character, lemme weigh in on here.
So, lemme highlight these points:
- The ability to retreat from his spacing tools (Fair and Neutral-B being cited) are useful, however it literally is required for the former to work because the move fails when it comes to moving and using it unless you get blessed by the god of autolink angles.
- If you're using Side-B to force approaches, you're doing it wrong, and I mean badly wrong. Spear Toss is garbage, the range is crap and it's extremely reactable. Pin isn't even guaranteed and the followup ability of Side-B is bad without Pin.
- Neutral-B cannot edgeguard that well, especially not if you charge it. If anything it'll actually help your opponent recover because Dee's only good punish moves offstage are Fair, Bair, Last hit Dair and Drill and you literally eliminate two of those options by allowing them a high recovery.
- BDee's wall of pain is okay. Nowhere near Jiggs' level and it has a lot less margin for error due to Dee's considerably worse recovery. I'd call it a Fence of Pain and Waddle Copter can only get you so far when recovering.
- Well, the main reason people think Dee is underwhelming/bottom tier is because he can't kill and he dies early. Lack of rep doesn't help but PAC-MAN still has Kyoz representing him and nobody really thinks PAC-MAN is top tier so...
- His only really good meta-relevant matchup is Bowser, and debatably PAC-MAN depending on how you view him. You could maybe make a case for him beating some other mid tier but honestly, they aren't that good.


- Again, no. Side-B cannot force approaches. It neither has the range nor the speed to do so and honestly, Dee will probably have to approach to actually use this at a long range to force an approach.
- Disjoints do not make a good character even when the meta revolves around them. Take a look at 9b Sora for instance, or Lloyd in literally every demo before 0.9a. Or Roy, Robin, Ike, Mii Swordfighter and Pit in Smash 4
- Again, you underestimate Dee's actual disjointed hitboxes. His only actual disjoint attacks that can even reliably compete with any meta relevant characters for range are FTilt, Fair, Uair, Neutral B and Down-B. The rest are just hella short ranged and barely qualify as a disjoint.
- Dair also has piss poor range and doesn't link properly. And that kill confirm is nice, but can get screwed by DI and SDI and he has so many better options such as, I dunno, Down-B?
- His projectile is a** for edgeguarding, what are you smoking lol?
- He can, except when his opponent goes lower to avoid the wall of pain and Dee has to take a stupid risk to finish the edgeguard or risk it being worthless.
- BDee actually has a lot of stuff that does work on him because of his weight, Falco can triple shine 0-death him on Yoshi's Story, and his garbage landing options make it difficult for him to recover from much. He also dies stupidly early, so yeah, real bonus. This isn't like Wario, Dee just has some seriously light weight and dies too early.
- People do play Dee, it's just the people who play him don't get very far/don't enter tournaments. Currently my best win with Dee is KingPawn's Ichigo in friendlies, and I might start entering tournaments, but it still won't make Dee better. He's not good.

EDIT: Here's my tier list as well. This one's likely gonna be very controversial, so here goes.

honestly that tier list isnt even that bad strife, aside from sora being underrated (imo), but obviously we'll have differing opinions.

gonna make a big call. gnw is top tier once 1.0.3 drops