Although, your friend was decent at trying to sound like he/she knows what he's doing

I kinda agree with a few of his/her arguments

Tier list Rev.2

Always in an effort to continually update via personal experience and tournament results.

A+:

A:

B+:

B:

C:

D:


For those who want elaboration on another character (especially one whose placement you disagree with), please ask before proclaiming my wrongness so a dialogue can begin.

Changes

: Pushed from top of B+ to bottom of A-tier. In theory, his hurtboxes extending with his hitboxes should be a big liability; while in certain instances this is true (lingering projectiles interrupting Gum Gum Bazooka), his coverage and speed are generally high enough to overcome this downfall. Also, as TSON has mentioned elsewhere, the dude can basically hit confirm anything into anything, juggling a large portion of the cast and exerting a large threat radius for a character with no projectile. Combined with solid edgeguard and brutal mixups, Luffy is proving to be potent in the right hands.

: Dropped to bottom of A-tier. Kills early, solid OoS options, etc (we know the drill), but the increasing prevalence of zoners/mid-range characters in the upper tiers is stifling his success. Thankfully winning neutral 1-2 times is all that is necessary to close a stock, so his power is not to be underestimated.

: Dropped from A-tier to top of B+ tier. Increasing MU experience is revealing some continued shortfalls in Bomber's martial kit; namely, he doesn't have very much coverage on a good number of moves, so it can be challenging to deal with pressure, cover DI options, and deal with smaller characters. Dude has some good MUs in the higher tiers against the likes of Bowser, Pac, Isaac, Falco, and Marth, but his weight and poor horizontal recovery are stifling success more than I suspected.

: Bumped to bottom of B-tier (obligatory "Skylar don't bite me"). Numerically, yes, he's "bottom 10", but B-tier in general is a bit challenging because it consists of a large swath of characters that have certain well-performing MUs and characteristics, but they just aren't shining like A-tier currently is. The challenge, however, is how they sort amongst themselves because it is a pretty tight pack with each character exhibiting clear strengths/flaws. He'll probably end up closer to the top of B-tier due to outperforming Link/Wario/ZSS, but I'm willing to be conservative for now.

: Improved a couple spots to top of C-tier. As much as I think Ness lost his good tools from Beta, I think he has more going for him from a development standpoint than those who were superseding him.

: Last place. The more I fight him, the less hopeful his situation seems. He effectively amounts to "Pick a flat stage w/ no upper platforms, ????, profit". Short reach, predictable kill moves, terrible neutral, light weight, average edge guard outside of gimmicks/suicide. Up throw is his best bet to land early kills, but it REQUIRES getting a good stage pick. Otherwise, you're reliant on Up smash or a bunch of slow/meh options and Up smash is so telegraphed because Kirby is slow. I really want Kirby to do well, but he just doesn't offer anything that separates him from any other character in such a way that he can competitively succeed.

No Jeffreys either.

Alright so I updated my tier list, here is my current tier list:

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:

Some Reasonings:

may be one of my most controversial choices for this tier list especially given my previous placements. I honestly REALLY tried thinking was good and underrated, but now I simply just know that isn't all that good. has very lackluster normals to work around with regarding his good mobility, The range on his bombs are a complete joke, the bombs requires way too much setup and only placing 3 bombs at max actually really hurts 's stage control ability which kind of ruins Bomberman's efficiency in terms of his strategy. And is one of the most obscure characters in the game with literally nonexistent results. Not to mention that outside of Bombs 's range is rather poor and he has a really terrible neutral with a big hurtbox on his head and a slow and easily gimpable recovery with a lack of horizontal range.

As a main. is one of the most overrated characters in the game. Even with Kyoz's win at Gax Saga, he hasn't really done anything else after that (Not to mention that in the tournament that no one literally knew how to fight pac-man and that case being more of Kyoz being good and not pac-man being good). Pac-Man pretty much has terrible kill power since a lot of his key shenanigans require a ridiculous amount of setup which is bad if the opponent knows the matchup, Hydrant but it gets exploited easily in general and not all people will fall for pac-man's ledge traps, and Pac-Man has a very unreliable kill throw that is risky in general. 's grab is a complete joke with it having a ridiculous amount of endlag and for having a very short amount of active frames often making the grab not affect the opponent properly in general with the risk often being having to lose the stock if the opponent can punish within time. also gets easily counterplayed in general including a lot of his infamous glitches like the galaga z-drop which again makes really easy to invalidate and to stop setups if the opponent knows what they are doing. Kyoz even admitted himself that pretty much loses to most of the cast and only wins around 5 matchups. simply is a character a lot of players like to overrate just because of 's cool and jank gimmicks in general but in reality, is just not that good and will in the future just be unviable when everyone knows how to play against him.

Now that I got that out of the way, any questions?

I definitely have some thoughts regarding Bomberman that I'll write a little more in detail tomorrow.

What about Sheik? I think she's certainly S-tier material with absurdly safe moves and recovery and pretty solid edgeguard, grab game, and D-smash being D-smash. She's way more dynamic now than in v0.9b and saw virtually no nerfs.

I mean Sheik is quite safe, but she does have rather inconsistent methods of securing stocks. Like she can win neutral plenty of times, but she needs to win it so consistently in order to land the stock while the opponent may pick up a character that requires less wins in neutral to win, etc. But I do see your point, and Incinerate has been doing well. F-Air got nerfed from what I heard tho.

Sorry. I wasn't talking about you are judging you or your experience. I was stating that doesn't like the phrasing in particular because doesn't help further a point why X is better than Y. It's a blanket statement that neglects current meta. It be great to hypothesize, but there's too muchlet's focus on the here and now that's been proven. . .

There's severals thing I would very much argue with your list, but one specific thing doesn't make senses to me:

How is Luigi is better Mario right now? (I guess this question is also for Manta too as he had Luigi ranked high.)

I need it explained: what about his neutral-gamen, character abilites, punishes (on specific top-tiers as well), zoning, or hidden-tech make one better than the other?

@Zalozis, I've actually been reconsidering that placement myself. Although, it's a bit challenging because for all their similarities, both characters operate quite differently in terms of pacing.

When projectiles get toned back, I don't know if Mario will break into A-tier. It remains to be seen if he can continue to wall out opponents and keep them reeling so he can close stocks with solid throws or smash mix-ups.

I initially put Luigi above Mario because he has a very strong spacing game, like Mario, but with an elevated movement technique to amplify it, providing for a bit more fluid invasion of neutral to bait responses and controlling. Against top-tiers, Luigi abuses heavy weights to the point that it's criminal. Up-tilt has great coverage, sliding D-tilt/Dsmash bops people, and his aerials juggle extremely well across the board.

My hunch is actually that both characters will settle around bottom of A-tier/top of B+-tier, but for different reasons. Mario because he has solid throws, projectile, recovery, stock closers, combos, etc... but he's just that -- solid. He's very well-balanced, which should ideally mean he falls in the mid-upper range of characters. Luigi has a stronger horizontal recovery and arguably better down-B for recovery/stall and gap-closing, and a better projectile for working a paced ground game with dash-sliding. But his combos are subject to DI, his throws are less consistent, and he can be a bit read-dependent to close stocks, so I imagine that slight lack in consistency will hurt his ability to perform continually. But they both have solid MUs in the upper tiers that give them both a well-deserved spot.

Inconsistency in stock closing seems to be about her only problem in Beta. Bouncing Fish covers 2 of her v0.9b glaring flaws: recovery and escaping juggles. It also compensates for reduced Fair power in edgeguarding.

Her Fair did get "nerfed", but it now combos into Bouncing Fish and itself pretty reliably till later percents. And even in that "loss", Dair is a super solid combo tool now for mixups/tech chases and can lead into Uair to close the stock.

I certainly see her outperforming MK and Falco.

BRB, writing my gripe on Bomberman now

Yea, I'm very sure that people will find my bomberman placing now quite controversial.

I had something lengthy written but found it to be concise to say I think you're undervaluing the hit box on his bombs. His normals are solid, they just lack coverage in certain spots. But he kills relatively well, has good throws, good frame data, and great speed.

His bomb throw is basically a travelling jab; it resets, it hit-confirms into his entire kit, and it stuffs approaches. In v0.9b, Bomberman couldn't deal with hyper aggression without abandoning his central tactic of bombs; now, he can actually use them to break combos by dropping them/tossing them up. And create safe landings, edgeguard, kill-confirm, etc. That hit-box just covers so many bases, it's almost not fair. And bigger bombs have bigger hit-boxes, so kicking a P-bomb around is nasty.

Yes, his recovery is rough horizontally, but his Up-B has solid priority/disjoint to stifle edgeguards, and you can use Bomb Kick to halt momentum a little when out far. I've found that DI'ing high and covering my landing with 1-2 small bombs makes for a reliable recovery. This combined with his weight is what hold him at bottom of A-tier at best, but more likely high up in B+.

Regarding set-up and bomb blast radius, he shouldn't play campy anymore. The hit box on his bombs allows him to get aggressive with even small bombs, allowing a quick throw --> detonate --> Up-throw --> Fair to create space for a medium bomb. Then that hit-confirms into all his aerials and off we go till someone dies. He also doesn't need the blast radius; sure, you can't pop a bomb randomly in neutral and catch people as reliably, but again, you don't need to. It just requires more strategic placement, and that hit box overcomes this with setting up free detonates. This elevates the usefulness of bomb kick, too, adding value to a previously bleh aspect of his kit.

I find him to be supremely flexible, fun, and effective despite his weight and recovery with a lot of growth opportunity.

However Bomberman's Bomb Throw is very slow in terms of startup and there are plenty of ways to avoid getting hit by it. It is almost as hard to hit with as Naruto's Side-B along with BomberMan just being wide open to a counterattack that could be deadlier. Bomb Kick doesn't really do much in terms of recovering in fact it can actually ruin the recovery due to Bomberman losing vertical distance for a tiny bit of horizontal distance. And since Bomberman can't cancel his bombs, it'll be hard for Bomberman to even get a P-Bomb not to mention it is a one time use. And the fact that bomberman can't of course detonate his bombs while recovering or when he is helpless kinda makes using bombs while recovering not too useful in general since its not like it has THAT much hitstunin the first place. And you know, quick throw isn't quick which hurts bomberman's aggressive game and any other setup of course takes a lot of time so Bomberman has to actually play campy and not aggressive. Not to mention that Bomberman pretty much loses to any rushdown character which is popular in the current meta including characters with disjoints that can beat out a lot of Bomberman's options. Bomberman has inconsistency issues due to his recovery, he has a poor neutral and gets punished greatly when losing the neutral game due to his large hurtbox, and a lot of his setups take too much time to be consistently reliable along with having to detonate ALL bombs making each setup not as rewarding as it seems.

But here's the thing; on paper that may appear true, but I simply don't encounter that in practice. His high ground/aerial speed/acceleration makes fading bomb throws really effective, and mixing up bomb toss directions can ruin an opponent actually winning neutral. I don't really care to get P-bombs out except when I close a stock or the opponent is off the edge/high and far away. Medium bombs are simply exceptional and don't take terribly long; Bomberman's great throws help create this space.

It is actually rather surprising how tossing bombs can help clear space; and bomb kick's ability to combo on its own and extend Bomberman's neutral presence shouldn't be underestimated. I don't think he's nearly as dire as you point out. Even with bomb throw taking time, his tilts and aerials are really fast. I don't think Bomberman should be either campy nor aggressive; both don't fully capture what he's good at. He's a hit-and-run kind of character. Playing a bit campy/evasively until one of his staple tools stick and he can begin tech chasing and closing off neutral with bigger/more bombs.

His recovery is meh, that's not up for debate.

He's seriously rewarding to a cerebral playstyle and players who can dictate pace.

thank you for discussing this with me, i'll think about bumping to mid-tier.