lol hey devs

can you explain why you decided to make Link's spin attack so stupidly good

so many active frames, a sweet spot, almost no endlag

Just punish and youre good, finding a way to get around it isn't that hard. But its still a bit too good, maybe.

10 frames of endlag (1/3 of a second!) and you can hit him from below or above for the duration.

If you're having trouble with someone is throwing out this move a lot, then you should space better and accept your easy punishes. It's strong when you get a hit but very punishable if you miss.

Bomb jumps = the bomb.

Like seriously as long as you hit the proper side of the bomb you have sooooo much distance off of it

it isn't too bad unless you main a character with no real range, and if you have limited projectiles to spam you pretty much are stuck using only that if you want to approach. EG tails. though i can sympathize greatly with anyone who mains captain falcon and has to deal with that.

how to reliably pwn off-stage:

1 - throw enemy away from stage
2 - pull out a bomb
3 - jump towards enemy, preferably just below him
4 - trap him inside an up-special
5 - you will drag him nearly off-screen, and the final hit will almost guaratee a KO
6 - fall to your death
7 - CHEAT DEATH becaus your bomb's fuse ran out
8 - double jump towards ledge
9 - up-special towards ledge

tadaaa... guaranteed and safe KO costing only 10% damage. not bad, huh?

The best Link I've seen yet, I actually like him better than in 64-Melee-Brawl! Now he's a contender for main. He is really good, although I don't think he's extremely OP. His improvement is really noticeable since he was pretty bad in .9a. Perhaps some moves could be toned down but I hope he doesn't get another overhaul.

The only thing I recommend anymore for toning him down is making his attacks slower and giving him more range. He should be good then.

Why is everyone always saying disjointed characters need more range •-•
(I know you meant more range to compensate for slower attacks.) But Link has enough range. \(•-•)/

Link's melee attacks are basically fine as is. Id like to see his not-dash jump be a little slower tho, seems unnatural how much air speed he can get out of absolutely nowhere

for once thats not me being salty about anything it just seems really weird

I for one am very salty about the horizontal reach of the actual Gale part of the boomerang. It reached out and sucked my in from ~1 DK length away.

Just to make this clear.

Frame-data of Spin-Attacks:

Melee:
| Animation Duration - 79 frames (in 60FPS) = 01.296 real-time seconds.
| Hit-box active - 8-41 frames.
| Vulnerability - 38 frames (in 60FPS) = 00.56 real-time seconds.

Project M:
| Animation Duration - 80 frames (in 60FPS) = 01.333 real-time seconds.
| Hit-box active - 8-47 frames.
| Vulnerability - 33 frames (in 60FPS) = 00.54 real-time seconds.

Smash Flash 2:
| Animation Duration - 33 (in 30FPS) = 01.033 real-time seconds.
| Hit-box active - 5-25 frames.
| Vulnerability - 8 frames (in 30FPS) = 0.233 real-time seconds.

Lag Vulnerability:
Melee:- - - - - - 0.560 real-time seconds.
Project M:- - - - 0.540 real-time seconds.
Smash Flash 2:- 0.233 real-time seconds.

Not only does it have less then half the cool-down time, by the Spin itself lasts nearly 25% shorter than previous versions. This all contributes to the safety of the move and its minimal risk for great reward.

The thing with Spin Attack is that unlike a lot of other moves, it's punishable while the move is still going on. It's only safe if you hit with it. It's a great move: hitting with it gives great reward and it has good startup. However, I don't think it's OP or too good because if you miss, you're liable to take heavy punishes.

You can't attempt to punish it with physical-attacks though. Most of those moves lose-out to the attack because of the hit-box and priority; it's too high-risk. Only very specific attacks, transcending projectiles, and disjoints can effectively punish it. I've been trying to accurately measure the hit-box of Spin-Attack, and I not sure, but it seems like part of the hit-box overlaps Link's head. A lot of characters end up being clipped by Spin-Attack before their attacks can hitting Link. Either there's part of a hit-box on his head, or the spin hit-box has enough vertical height where it can hit an airborne approaching character; but I more suspect it to be part of the current priority glitch.

And you aren't liable to heavy punish, even on complete whiff at mid-range. Most characters lack the ability to effectively hit Link during the spin, or they can't effectively covers the distance outside the spin's sword-range to punish. This is also a rare situation to be in, especially because the spin itself lasts much shorter than previous version. I'm not saying 'its so good, you can randomly throw it out and be safe.' I'm saying when a experienced Link knows where and how to abuse it, it will strongly dictate certain match-ups because of its current design. Its rewards outweighs its rare risk of punishment. This is why I'm looking specifically into and studying the frame-data to understand how it works its effective uses.

I think of Spin Attack somewhat like I think of Ichigo side-B spam or Spinning Kong: most characters have a way to beat it easily, and if you find that you're mostly OK. For example, I play Yoshi and I know that whenever you whiff at mid-range you can dair for 30+%, fair for combos, or nair for killing. As Meta Knight, another one of my mains, I know that dair beats it, bair beats it horizontally (!), and if I'm really on my game I can dash JC grab. The fact that most moves can't get past the disjoint means nothing if almost every character (or every character: I'm really not sure if any character doesn't have a way to beat it while it's still in the attack animation) has at least one. I think the deal with the vertical disjoint is that the sword has a deceptive hitbox that extends beyond the sword, and there is a deceptive hitbox that is about 1 crouching Kirby above Link's head, but other than that I don't think there's any other hitbox. I also think it may have something to do with the rotation of the sword and you may be able to sneak in the end when the sword slows down.