Why is Lloyd better than Marth? I have always wondered this throughout my time of first looking at the SSF2 tier list. While I don't consider myself to be extremely good or anything, I do know a thing or two about the game. And everyday I wonder why Lloyd is considered 3rd best in the game currently. The only things that makes him better than Marth are:

1) A good punish game. Lloyd can tack on lots of percent, and quickly end a stock with a Sonic Thrust. This must be why he is this high up. Other than that, he doesn't really have anything else. And it's not even like he can get anything off his grabs either, only a throw and from there you need to get lucky.

2) A projectile. It's pretty self explanatory, but really it's one of his only tools in neutral.

Now you might be wondering, "But hey, doesn't that make Llyod a better character than Marth?" And to that I answer no. Because let's look at his weaknesses!

1) A terrible recovery. And by terrible I mean ATROCIOUS! It's so bad, to where if someone just gives Llyod a little tap after he double jumps, Llyod is as good as dead. Honestly! It's not even like his up-b, his ONLY recovery tool, sweetspots the ledge! This is compounded by his below-average weight, which sends him further than the majority of then cast. And get this, He's lighter than Marth! Speaking of Marth, let's look at his recovery! He has 3 things going for him. Side-B, Neutral-B, and Up-B. His side b, in the state it is in now, is completely BROKEN! It sends him way too sideways to where it's even fair. Neutral b is another option that he has. And even though it is a sub-par recovery option, is still a good mixup (Keep in mind Llyod has NONE) against shielding opponents. Then there is his up b. While it isn't the greatest up b of all time, it is still a lot better than Llyod's. It reaches so much farther, and can even kill. On to my next point.

2) No way to fall down back to the ground. This might seem like a weird one at first, but hear me out. When you hit Llyod upwards, what options does he have? To either fastfall and likely be hit again, get lucky with an airdodge, and Down air. He has no down-b he can use, so he is stuck with those three options. And lets just clear this up, his dair is terrible for going down! It moves so slowly, its so easy to react to, and is so easy to punish. The only way it would be good is if your opponent was braindead and let themselves get hit by it. And, if you are lucky enough to get to the ground using the move, it has, like, a full second of end lag. Once you hit Llyod up, he's there until he's dead. Let's look at Marth now. He has the same three options, plus a counter. This time, Marth's dair isn't so bad! It covers around him, so that when the opponent tries to hit him back up, the opponent gets hit instead. And as a plus, it hits them up! So now Marth is in the advantagous position! He also has a counter, which admittedly is not something you want to be using. However, its there and its an option, which is already more than what Lloyd has.

Anyways, reading this means that you didn't immediately go and rage at me in the thread. I do not mean to start a flame war, merely a discussion on my opinion. I would like to hear your guys' thoughts on this. Thanks!

Lloyd has really good mobility, Double Demon Fang is one of the best projectiles in the game because it nullifies any form of reflect, he has decent range, Grave Blade forces an option from across the stage, (which results in Lloyd having an excellent neutral) a really good combo game at basically any percent and is also a great edgeguarder with Fair, Beast and Sonic Thrust. Sword Rain also is quite useful imo and can catch people on the ledge if they do a wrong move (or none at all).

1.) As you said, Lloyds punish game is really good. Powerful juggles that can ignore DI to some extent and easily put you offstage/dead. His throws are actually good. Uthrow sets up for juggles, FThrow has a really low anhle, making it good for setting up edgeguards, BThrow also sets up edgeguarding aituations (both BThrow and FThrow can also kill, but only at high damage) and DThrow has high damage output and also puts you in a bad position.

2.) It is a projectile that cannot be turned against Lloyd by any means unless he only uses Single Demon Fang. Its part of what makes his neutral so good. A JC Tiger Blade also can cover quite a distance, he can wall you out with Fair, or pressure you from the other side of the continent with Grave Blade. There are little moments where you are safe from Lloyd.

3.) His recovery really is his major flaw (plus an inability to kill at higher percentages at times). But he still retains the abilty to cover himself with a high priority disjoint hitbox at all times, even after his Up Special. Im not saying it is a great recovery, but you can work around it somewhat. Tiger Blade not sweetspotting shouldnt matzer too much in a game where only one Up B (not counting tethers) can sweetspot, which happens to be PK Thunder out of all recovery moves.

4.) One of us is doing something wrong. Tempest is quite useful for landing, he can use Tiger Blade -> airial for a lagless landing with coverage, Rising Falcon still is decent to get out of an immidiate pressure situation with the correct spacing (plus TBC Dair setsup really nice) etc. He is no Black Mage or Mega Man when it comes to landing, but its not his weak point either.


Marth on the other hand has more range, better recovery, and thats about it. The lack of a projectile hurts his neutral a lot, and Counter doesnt really apply the pressure Grave Blade can. He can kill a bit better, but he still struggles at high damage, just like Lloyd. Marth also is a decent edgeguarder, but Lloyd just does the job better imo. Marth also is slower and a much bigger target, and he is worse at landing safely compared to Lloyd. Dont get me wrong, they ae both good characters, but Lloyd outclasses Marth in almost every way minus recovery and 3(?) weight units.

I don't think Lloyd's Recovery is much worse than Marth's. D-Air is really useful for covering horizontal distance while conserving your Up-B :0

I think marth might be substantially better at countering edge guards with his own hitboxes. I can edgeguard Lloyd WAY more consistantly than I can Marth.

You don't have to have a neutral with Lloyd because down+b does all the work for you.