While I fully agree that Jab Dsmash was one of Samus' better kill options, she had more than just a reliable Dsmash, Bair carried people offstage with bad DI for a gimp/kill, and killed around 100% with bad DI. Charge shot killed around 90-110% and Dair gimps out of bomb were always satisfying.
I can not agree with you when you say that Beta samus is faster.If she did get a movement buff, it is marginal. In 9b moving with Samus was quick and fluid, as such that I pride myself in the fluidity of my 9b samus. It goes without saying that Beta samus is not fluid by any means.
9b Samus had 2 fast OoS and 1 slow but reliable OoS respectively; UpB/Bair, DownB

9b samus didn't have to rely on bombs to get back to stage while being juggled. Airdodge, airdodgeZair, Nair or even Bair were all good ways to get past juggling so idk where you were going with this.
Projectiles have no priority as of beta 1.0.2. and they were effective even in 9b. >.> did you play samus in 9b at all?
She kills earlier? Only Fsmash kills earlier outside of aforementioned Fair/CS

As for her tools, half her moveset was reduced not only in viability, but ability. Uair combos less, Bair is all but useless as a combo and kill move, Dtilt has a lower hitbox(or placebo) and doesn't combo at low%(traded for better KO power), Ftilt has reduced range and hitstun, DA doesn't go as far and doesn't do as much KB or hitstun, Utilt doesn't throw victims up for a free Charge shot or SideB near the top of the blast zone(I miss this ;-;), and Dsmash is for-lack-of-better-words crappy now(no reward for landing such a short range attack).
The new Bthrow is not needed. not one bit
I'm not going to go into Dthrow because it did need a change, but I personally don't agree with how it was changed.

*Sigh* I must say I do concede. I'm not 100% convinced, but I do see what you mean regarding certain tools she has lost.

I never felt like Bair was a good OoS options because her short hop was so high and her air acceleration was poor (well, maybe against someone like ZSS who is tall). Though, I played Samus a bit too patiently in v0.9b and preffered to fast-fall her aerials (almost exclusively and to a fault).

I'm also totally peeved about her D-throw change. It needed to not cheese opponents at 80% into a free charge shot, but it's current performance just isn't helping an already blah grab game. I would prefer to see Up-throw pick up that lost power with higher knockback and letting go lower to the ground.

I did enjoy some invigorating matches with a player that made great use of F-throw, D-tilt, and U-tilt in combos; I believe Samus has shifted from a vertical combo character to a horizontal one with how these moves in particular have changed. I'm a big fan of where her smash attacks are at now, particularly Fsmash with the late hit.

Perhaps a proper compromise is bringing Fair/CS back (rightly), and adjusting the trajectory of the heel of Utilt to launch up and the inside leg to launch out? At least in such a way that both can open up follow-up opportunities while retaining the functionality of its current design.

On the bottom of the board index, it states what users have a birthday today.

my entire problem with beta samus is the lack of movement and the cancerFair- and how this iteration was built from the ground up to stomp out my playstyle in 9b which literally everyone I played with liked me using


oh

yet again you're complaining
>f*** THIS NEW SAMUS IT DOESN'T SUIT MY PLAYSTYLE GIVE ME 9b BECAUSE I ONLY CARE ABOUT MY PLAYSTYLE AND MINE ALONE
f*** off

?....
So a long time Samus main can't express his concerns for a character he has put tons of time into?

He clearly went above the "ME", "I", and "MY" statements. He went into details and expressed how she has lost parts of her kit and character play style. I've done so as well in the other post. I don't see any problem in someone being upset when it's their main. I'm just assuming you're a NEW Samus main or something? Or just a new random Samus player. I personally don't mind adjusting to new things, but when said things aren't satisfying then why play? Yes enjoyment is an important factor for us players.

slightly off topic;
Anyone noticing how Gudaku is simply insulting me over and over and not providing evidence or even discussing why samus should stay her beta iteration?
no?
Just me? ok.

9b samus isn't coming back. even if she was better or better designed, beta samus is here to stay. so how about we actually discuss the character that is in the game right now?

i'm trying to lab punish game rn
so turns out landing uair -> grab -> dthrow -> fair -> dair is true on heavies at 0 and kills b/c recovery
ken combo boys?
is now?

works on ,

edit: o s*** it also works on
testing more out rn

double edit:
COMPREHENSIVE CHART ON WHO THIS WORKS ON

Works completely on:
Works completely with strict timing on:
Works completely with strict uair timing:
Works without landing uair on:
Works without landing uair and with strict timing on:
Doesn't work on:
Works at later percents, but Samus can chaingrab this character until it works on them:

tl;dr: luigi, kirby, and puff are too floaty, but everyone else gets true comboed by dthrow -> fair -> dair. you can't uair -> grab the floatier members of the cast tho

Fair is SDIable, so be careful with your Ken Combo!

Real talk, Samus is right now my least favorite character to fight against. Everything she has is just so...oppressive. A well-played Samus is just hell to fight.

Yeah, there was this guy, I think his name was something along the lines of psmsida (probably not), but he was like an Isai with samus. I couldn't get him down to 1 stock in any 4 stock match, no matter what I tried.

it's my specialty, or rather my favorite thing to do.

edit: and why should i, her only s*** things are fair and cs, everything is as fine as it is, you want her 9b samus which has a bs chaingrab 0-70% on fastfallers, d-smash that kills at 30-40% depending on weight and part of the stage, and that f-smash which is literally useless and can't kill s***.

I will talk more about the moveset changes and why I disagree with the majority or them at the lower end of this post.
1)-9b Dthrow only went that high on 2 characters semi-reliably. Fox and DK. Falcon could easily get out.
2)-Dsmash only killed Fox at 30-40 with bad or no DI. It killed Jiggs around 70% which is understandable it being a low range kill move hitting a super light and floaty character.
3)-9b Fsmash was not useless. It was fast and had little endlag and worked well to catch people by surprise with a relatively strong hit which could kill at 90% with bad DI.

1a) I believe in almost every post I have made I mentioned reverting to 9b samus style and not a carbon copy. I often mention reliable ways of balancing this move for the ONE match up. DK can get out after 40% in 9b depending on DI
2a) So instead of a smash attack with little range that only really hurt a select type of character groupings you opt for another smash attack that has a lot of range, and kills just as effectively across the board? dunno how you thought to imply this being a good change.
3a) See above.

I will be the good internet dweller and reasonably look at your opinions and try to say positive things about them while possibly denying why they are acceptable.

1b) It is perfectly understandable to want to remove a chaingrab that was free 50% on 1 character and easy 20-30% on DK. If you knew anything about me on the other hand you would know that I did not ever use Dthrow on fox past 20%, additionally I also did not use CSG. I have many videos showcasing my samus on YT for reference.
2b) Sure a short range smash attack that can put a spacy just offstage from the center of smashville at 40% is a scary thought, its not as bad as you make it out to be unless bad DI...Unless you were fox samus Dsmash was only a worry after 70% where it was a kill move on portions of the cast. With good DI most of the roster could survive a Dsmash as high as 110%.
3b) A useless smash attack is questionable in any regards so wanting to buff one is seemingly mandatory. But to take said useless smash attack and make it super useful at the cost of another smash attack which was already super useful doesn't make much sense to me.

Now onto my thoughts on moveset changes-
From the looks of it the Devs wanted beta samus to be a slow wall of projectiles and explosions. I personally am not a fan of it as it fully contradicts my playstyle in 9b. But for this example I will hold an open mind.

Uair -Beta Uair doesn't really fit because it only really combos at low % where Fair does just as well. It doesn't doing anything special other than mixup into charge shot at 50% or try to smash4 it and Uair all the way to the blast zones on platform maps, which is pretty anti-competitive if you ask me.
9b Uair worked well because it has pretty low KBG and hit just far up enough that you can DJ downB/Uair/whatever and finish a combo string
Bair -KB angle was increased with only slight KBG increase, meaning that it doesn't kill without bad DI and its not that great of a low% combo tool, I heard somewhere that the sweetspot was removed too.
Nair -in Beta Nair is a pretty good kill move past 100% while also retaining the great priority it had from 9b. A strange change IMO but it removes the basic use that it had in 9b which was a neutral mixup move and combo tool on platform stages.
Fair -I suppose I don't need to explain anything here. 9b was niche tool that was optimal in select scenarios. Beta just makes it cancer.
Zair -Hitbox has actual duration, more KB and hitstun, and still no endlag.

UpB -Got a distance buff at teh cost of intangibility frames on grounded startup. While it is nice I do not think it is something she needs, kinda want it to go back.
DownB -1000% more commitment, longer duration, and no skill required to morphslide. also reduces recovery when double bomb jumped offstage. I am not a fan of the changes, competitively.
SideB -I am not noticing a difference that apart from maybe slightly more KBG
SideBHoming -Better homing, this was done beautifully if I say so myself. still wish it could be reflected back properly.
NeutB -Some people say its glitched. Nonetheless it is broken, and far more abusable than CSG stack in 9b.
as far as projectiles go; they are all transcendent but somehow are also considered entities which explains why goku can go KK off of a Ki blast and Naruto can throw an uncharged rasengan using his aerial downB.. Why is this a thing

Ftilt -Less range, less base KB. A very understandable nerf- it outranged marth Fsmash in 9b
Utilt -Faster startup, more kill power(with outward DI), but it loses some very interesting aspects of its 9b version namely the sourspot hitting directly up for followup kills. I get why its gone, gonna miss it though.
Dtilt -Higher base KB and KBG. I think it has increased horizontal range and reduced vertical range. Another of the anomaly changes, she didn't need more vertical kill power, and this change has hurt her low % combo game a little. I dislike the 'buff'

Fsmash -See 2a) for reference. Beta Fsmash just simply isn't needed to be this strong. tone it WAAY down or make it a spacing smash attack like Mario's
Usmash -It is a much better move in Beta, plain and simple.
Dsmash -higher KB angle lower base KB and KBG. only usable at 130+ for vertical kills or terrible DI mixups to send people a little offstage(not great at it still because it hits them pretty high still). This change I simply hate. in 9b it was a low range high reward move that was really good if you outplayed your opponent on the ground which rewards technical and intuitive play. In beta its simply bad.

General Movement
`Her maximum airspeed was increased
Air acceleration got hit with a massive nerf as she now takes a many as 20 frames to start moving at a decent speed from a standstill(not jumping from the ground). - this is the nerf that I despise the absolute most.
`Her ground movement feels slightly slower as in a lower Initial dash speed.
`DownB longer 'morph' duration and has slow starting speed and collects speed very fast no matter where it is used. offstage or on the ground.I know I mentioned this in the specials category but it fits here even more.. I do not like this nerf either because it removes from her skill cap

thanks for being a good person unleyk me hihi
hmmu.
so what you said in your 3)...

Which means it's actually broken and isn't useless at all, so no thanks.
so i guess your other points from what i said is pretty good, so i guess i will just focus what you think of the movements.

UAir, which won't be that broken if the devs did fix cs (yes i'm implying they will do that), but of course that's a good point.
BAir, but still useful for edgeguarding, dunno about the sweetspot but is it the one that does 15%? If yes, then it still exists.
NAir, lol NAir till out of the stage, also her only useful forward damage if fair is reduced to her 9b
FAir, Beta FAir can't kill until 200% unless you have s*** DI or is outside of the stage, it can't connect to most of her moves if enemy isn't dumb and actually has good DI, the only thing i will agree about FAir is it does 24% damage when all of it hits (seriously though why not make it 16% in total instead it does 6% more damage than FSmash for God's sake)
ZAir, i agree (why did link's have endlag )

UpB, it doesn't change anything that much anyway, so no going into that.
DownB, a buff and a nerf, which makes it somehow better, only thing i will agree on is it's duration and the only thing i will disagree on is skill required to morphslide,
hell can you actually even morphslide in 9b? if you can, how far does it take you? (also lol Perfect Shield Drop is also easy to do, not sure why would you complain about that, and luckily for you you can't do s*** instantly as well.)
SideB and SideB Homing, so it's fine I suppose (but lol transcendent projectiles)
NeutB, so far it is broken, this is one of the only things about Samus I don't like and would wish the devs would fix this already in the next updates

FTilt, I wish it can be used for edgeguarding tho (angling when)
UTilt, isn't this "sourspot" you're talking about is when the enemy is on the ground? Well other than that it's pretty good and doesn't need to be changed back to 9b (plus she already has 3 moves for launching for God's sake we don't need another one)
DTilt, I agree, but it's still a great combo starter at low percents.

FSmash, I'd say it's better, first of all as a kill move and it's first hit still gives people enough reaction time to DI out of this, and isn't like 9b FSmash which just comes out of the blue.
USmash, I agree.
DSmash, but doesn't that mean it can connect to many moves, making it a good combo starter and a good comboer?

Meaning this air acceleration nerf actually makes her less broken, I don't mind it at all.
Her Movement Speed being decreased is fine, it increases her chance of being pressured which makes her less broken, also even if you like it or not her morph slide fix this issue
Yeah and that morph duration (it must be the reason why it's easier to do morph slide) still makes her less broken and more open while using DownB, you should see the bad things while looking at the good things as well ya know.

thanks for not being an a****** to me though even though i was being an a******, love you man.

I miss my sweet drop tilts. lol

Also morph slide is a 09b thing. It's nothing new. The factor you would even question if it was even there showcases the skill and time needed to master the character for you to not even know that it was there. It was mainly done one platforms or coming back on stage as a morphball. You could do it in midair as well.

it wasn't broken at all. not even OP. just a slightly underwhelming balanced move... Why are you arguing with me so much if you apparently didn't even know what 9b samus did?

Another problem induced by the cancer Fair, the complete removal of a move.
Beta Fair is simply the only move you want to use. nair. Uair. Bair. Dair. Why do any of them when you can simply Fair->Chargeshot?

UpB was buffed to make it possible to recover if you whiff a Zair recovery. Zair buffed as well to make recovery easier, so the UpB buff is just egregious recovery that she doesn't need.
the DownB nerf/buff is the same type of thing as the Fair buff. it just holds your hand when it doesn't need to.
and I disagree with your statement that it is a better move for it; it increases the duration of which you are vulnerable and you have to 100% commit to your choice before you press downB otherwise you won't go far at all. In general this new version is not competitive outside of bombcollision->Dair or such.
https://gfycat.com/ChillyNegligibleHare

Beta Utilt doesn't have a sweet or sourspot its all teh same hitbox
Beta Dsmash doesn't set up for anything because of the endlag it has, its just a black sheep smash attack now, just like luffy's Fsmash. and Bandana dee's everything


You're comparing things wrong here. Just wrong.
You're thinking of how things go onto Beta samus with all she has now, this is a bad thing to do as we are discussing Beta samus style vs 9b samus style
In 9b her mobility was perfect as it balanced out with her general range(outside of Ftilt lol that was HUGE)

if I knew you IRL i'd probably have strangled you for saying the things you did. Not to death, but enough.

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