woah sorry im so late on this response but im almost 100% certain you cant hit your own bombs in brawl, and about the tether from up special, i have neither heard of or seen this anywhere, not even in tas. pretty sure it doesnt work either, go save a replay of this and post it to a video site or something, if you can do this, this would be great. about his ground game, its just well, its not enough to outweigh his other bad characteristics in all honesty. hes not the worst in the game, but calling it one of the best is a bit of a stretch

Pretty sure Sector Z allows camping behind the wing, dont remember if that was bad or not though.

Probably the best thing they can do for large characters is give them more super armor frames throughout their movesets, like in Project M (i think thats where they did it). Like Bowser having limited SA frames during his smashes or something, and at higher percentages it stops working, similar to Yoshi's midair jump. Or maybe similar to the SA of Snake's Up Special where he doesnt flinch unless hit by an attack that does more than 7% damage.

sector z is just pretty bad, size is probably the biggest issue but camping isn't great either.

also super armor was a great idea, although just buffing hitboxes in general also works (why can ganon's grounded downb not hit crouching characters, or at least many of them)

Yeah but a large part of what brings large characters down is their size, it makes them easier to hit, and therefore combo.

But larger characters can combo fast-fallers, too. So which character type is worse? Heavy-weight or fast-faller?

Hey guys, let's go to beta for some nostalgia. See, when the first Super Smash Bros. Melee trailer was shown, there are VERY notable differences from the final product:

-Fox's Blaster is slower (which would have been useful against Fox)
-Link and Bowser were somewhat faster
-Sheik was supposed to be her own character, and there was no sign of Zelda anywhere.

That's all I could spot.

How about the two mysterious platforms from Temple which wasnt there in the final game.

Character-wise, dude.

Actually many characters can combo fast-fallers, it's not just larger characters. But it turns out that the fast-fallers in melee are amongst the best comboers and even more so on the other fast-fallers - Falco is one of the best comboers on Fox, Fox combos Falco really well. They all have their ups and downs.

The problem with large characters is that they're commonly paired with heavyweight, which makes them pretty similar to fast-fallers in terms of physics. And fast-fallers and heavyweights in general are pretty predictable in terms of where they fly when they get hit, and are generally pretty easily accessible when knocked around by fixed knockback moves like Fox/Falco's shine. And the thing about being the "slow, strong" move is that Nintendo obviously had no idea how strong the concept of "movement" would be in Melee, with dashdancing, wavedashing, wavelanding, OOS options, jump-cancelled everything (grabs, upsmash, up-b), cancelling shines into jumps which can be jump-cancelled into more options, and as a result since the heavier characters tend to have less or weaker movement options their mobility is definitely cut on.

And the other problem with large characters is that they're commonly paired with "strong/laggy moves", which means that they have their times to shine when moves connect, but in general they have tons of holes in the hitboxes and tons of lag such that even with L-cancelling, a lot of them can't really match up to the speed of Fox/Falco's best options (namely shine, which comes out frame 1 and hits on frame 2-3 I believe).

Also Zelda was in the trailer with Shiek, in the part that's all shiny and the river, the ghost in the background is Shiek's.

I'm going to respond to this because the rest of the stuff in this topic is lame atm.

I don't think you understand enough about the game, and I'm not sure where you got your info.

Ice climbers can only do well in a tournament if they get lucky and don't have to face any Peaches or Falcons that are remotely close to their skill level and have some idea about the matchup, because if they do they will lose 100% of the time. Wobbles has played Armada in countless friendlies and is yet to take a single game off of him. Armada is the better overall player and all, but I don't think there's a single other player matchup among players of their caliber that would result in a perfect game score over such a long period of time. Falcon has nothing anywhere near this bad in his matchup spread. He has losing matchups, but he has a good shot at winning all of them.

Falcon beats Peach and has a good shot against any character. He has a harder time of it than characters above him, but that's why he's below them. And that's why he's above ICs, because whatever you want to say about how bad falcon is he has a fighting chance in every MU.

I'm not the only one saying that, Void.

I know Ice climbers vs Peach is damn super hard. It's no different to Peach vs Puff (although you could argue this one needs developpement).
Counterpick.
Like Armada counterpicks against Puff, Ice Climbers should counterpick against Peach. I know most of them don't because they are just uncomfortable with this.
Ice climbers vs Peach is like 25-75 or 20-80. A stupid MU. However, it's only one MU, which can be couterpicked.
Falcon vs Spacies (Fox and Falco) 30-70 (Falco) and 35-65 (Fox). Falcon has two beastly MUs against him, and guess who are the most popular, metagame defining characters ? Fox and Falco.

You shouldn't just say I don't understand the subject, when it very well may be you, who brings outdated view on it.

http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-ti ... t-15732908
This just a tiny example on Smashboards.
The idea that Ice Climbers may be better than Falcon is waaaayyy older than this. (I lack more links tough).
Yes, C.Falcon has just winnable MUs. Just as Doctor Mario...

As for Peach vs Falcon, it's very clear your statement is outdated. Most good people on Smashboards now accept this MU as even.
It is true in practice, and on paper. Falcon, as I said, is flawed. And even if Peach has much less than a Space animal to abuse it, she only needs :
_ more priority, and trading
_ way better recovery
_ better edgeguards and gimps
_ 0-to-death combo potential on Falcon
to make this even. I didn't even said "Peach wins this" even if this is what Armada does. Armada is just better in skills, but also, Peach has what it takes for it.

As for what Armada think himself about Peach vs Falcon, he is just unsure about it, that was on his page where people could ask him questions. He didn't play enough Falcons he said.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comme ... _anything/
An entire page of useful knowledge.

Void, you are on Smashboards everyday, right ?
You own SSBM yourself right ? I don't, as you know. And still ?
It's not as if I invented my stuff in just one week.

Thanks you for answering anyway.
It's quite hard to have good discussions these days...

PS: in case you wonder, I don't just copy-paste what I read on Smashboards. Or what I see on Youtube.
I know the important dynamics of MUs.
And at the end of the day... MUs determine Tier lists.

not as experienced with icies but you can't just say "you should counterpick to counter this character's bad matchup" when you're talking about the tier list position of the character being discussed, because even if its true it's like saying pichu should be a lot higher on the tier list if you just counterpick fox against all characters (taken it to the extreme, but it's to make a point).

also at some point you have to take results into account too. only 4 icies at evo, all of them amazing, only 1 makes it to top somethingsomething (16?), whos obviously amazing and made it to finals. icies don't normally place well in tournaments, rarely ever breaking top 8, falcon generally does a lot better with a lot less completely s*** matchups (from my understanding, i know he struggles with spacies).

I remember when ssbpd was up, we could see Ice Climbers as the single most consistent character worldwide...
Even if they are fewer.

And yes, couterpicking is important. Especially when Ice Cimbers just need it for only one character, Peach.
"Playing to win" remember ? At least, Armada knows this.

Pichu is bottom tier, please do not annoy me and yourself with such fallacies.
At least Ice Climber have what it takes to win tournaments.

Results, and MUs tends toward 7th for Ice Climbers. At least if you don't limit yourself to just nationals and USA.
But the reason why I don't like results, and prefer MUs overall, is that there is just too few players, Top players in particular, in that game community. Again, most people agree on this detail (even if they don't agree about the use of results anyway).

Ice Climbers's MU spread is better than Falcon, except vs Peach. Which isn't a problem if you counterpick. Isn't it clear ?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC) (copy and paste the link to make it work)
Falcon is top 6-7 in the SSBM tier list since sooooo long, people just don't like when the Statut quo is threatened.

Falcon is just probably a bit less good than Ice Climbers. This idea upsets people because of bias. Falcon love bias, and Ice Climber lack of interest bias. "Kill Nana" isn't all they're is to say about Ice Climbers.
It's also on the Ice Climbers player fault themselves, if they can't bring themselves to counterpick Peach, just Peach, it's no wonder.

What I see is a great character with just one drawback.
When I watch Falcon however, he has more "winnable MUs", but also more "painful MU", and weaknesses so easy to exploit, especially when you know how to abuse Fox and Falco.

lmao at linking the biggest falcon johner of all time as your source on something.

And I don't think you understood what gc saying about pichu.

The tier list is meant to be an indication of how well a character can perform in tournament, not how well a character can perform in tournament if you switch to a space animal for bad matchups. Having 2 unwinniable matchups vs 2 relatively popular characters is much worse than having slightly disadvantageous matchups against more. Falcon can still win vs everyone, ICs need insane bracket luck to make it far. It's almost like Falcon is the better character for doing well in tournaments.

And GC is also right about results. We have years of results and we've seen that, with few exceptions, the top Falcons outplace the top ICs every time. Ice climbers have higher average placing because very few people play them, while Falcon is a popular character at lower levels. If we look at the top level of play, ICs lose out every time. Look at tournament results where the top players are in attendance and you'll see this is the case. I'm not sure what results you're talking about, but unless you're using something silly like average placement of all character mains in a tournament the results heavily favor Falcon. Basing your opinions off of what people like Hax say on smashboards is not the way to become informed.

Side note, character counterpicking is not a matter of "bringing yourself" to counterpick a character. You're playing a secondary against another player's main, and you'll need a VERY well practiced secondary that also fits your playstyle if you want to have any chance against someone playing their main in a matchup they've played thousands of times more than you. There are a few notable examples of counterpicking working, but those usually subvert this factor somehow rather than confront it. This is all irrelevant to tier lists anyway, but you seem to think that just counterpicking solves a character's matchup problems in tournament when usually that's not the case. People have tried it and it usually fails.

EDIT: just reread, are you really suggesting that the results of locals be used as data when determining character rankings?

@Void
I already said I don't care much about results and explained why. Players are too few, especially Top. This also influence nationnals.
If counterpicking isn't important, then, Peach should drop, because she is stopped by Puff. Very hard. And this is also supported by results.

So to answer your question : no I don't care about locals, however it is still funny to be so adamant with results as an undisputable base to dicuss ranking. If so, Jigglypuff should have been n°1 at some point.

As for the pichu statement I understood what he said. But he doesn't understand that in this case, it may be Falcon that's the most flawed character, and proved by MUs. Counterpicking isn't just a player skill. It is a way to complete a character by covering their few flaws.
Pichu has too many bad MUs to even win a single good match. In that case, if the Pichu mainer changes to Fox, he is just a Fox mainer in his results. Is that hard to understand ?
Ice Climbers can actually work their way toward a GF, and I am not talking about EVO.
Peach are common ? Yeah, using a secondary isn't any less the doing of an Ice Climbers... player.
It is a fully part of the viability of the character, but not in a so much negative way as you seem to imply.

Hax johns ?
Good, because he isn't the reason for my claims.
I guess Armada johns too.
But he isn't the reason either.
Ice Climbers have legitimately what it takes



@Goodclicker
_ I don't care about ssbpd. It was just a short sentence about funny datas.
_ Everyone agrees about Ice Climber n° 8 ? Not really. I see your reasonning but I am not in a refuting stance. I am actually open minded to the possibilty of a change.
_ Counterpicking isn't a flaw. If so Peach wouldn't be 6th because of Puff.
If some of you 2 want to tell me Puff vs Peach isn't worse than 65-35, I advise you to bring some solid reasonning.
As far as I know Falcon has more consistent tools vs Falco, than (Armada's) Peach vs (Hbox's) Puff.


This is just mindblowing how condescending you two are toward me.
I exposed my argument : Ice Climbers is better (or equal) than Falcon against everyone except for Peach. Wich is why it is so easy to counterpick. If that was wrong, then Doctor mario, I guess, is better than Ice Climbers ?

This is annoying. You don't even try to think a bit out of your box.
Even if you don't agree with me, be more consistent in your reasonning. And actually try to envisage the possibilty of what I say, before claiming I'm dead wrong.

Don't you know any competitive game where having less hard counters, and better MUs against the others Top tier, is more viable ?
You could say it's player skills, but it's still a part of Ice Climbers's viabilty.

About the "statut quo" part, yes this community would simply be shocked to see Falcon drop. Falcon bias.
And Top players themselves don't always agree about placement.
However contrarily to some people out there, Top players try to think. To challenge. If after thinking, they claim they view Ice Climbers as 8th, I have no problem with it.
However, if after re-thinking, some of them think they are possibly 7th, why should I be laughed at if I think the same ?

Also remember I said "possibility", not certainty.

Basic MU spread knowledge and couterpicking system is of a baby competitior level.
Smash players seem to be adamant against RPS counterpicking impacting the tier listing.

Oh and don't bring up Pichu again. I repeat myself : Ice Climbers case is an actual, true possibility, and one should not ignore that.
Did I say how Falcon is a bit overrated ?

If you really think he is better, you actually have to bring up an explanation, because the MUs don't say so right now.
And it may reflect in the future results who knows ?

If you disagree with me, you haven't bringed on the true counter arguments.
Again, Ice Climber is just possibly 7th, and there is actual reasoning to back up this claim.
Falcon is good, yeah.
Ice Climbers may just be better.