Hey guys. New member here, but I've been a part of the SSF2 community since the original demo. I picked up BM as my main since v.7, and have kept him since. Unfortunately, I'm not very fond of the changes in Beta. Lots of his options were outright gutted. I had heard the new patch could launch in a few months on Bowler's video with tson (shoutouts from Smashboards, dude), so I thought maybe I could offer some suggestions here while the patch is still in the process of being worked on. Keep in mind this is just based on my experience in my local scene.

Uair: I'm not really sure why this was changed, but I don't think it works on BM very well. BM has poor jumping capabilities, so a multi hitting uair doesn't compliment his aerials from my experience. The damage is highly consistent, too. It can nail several of the hitboxes for moderate damage, or only one hitbox will hit for about 5%. I think you guys had it back in an earlier demo. A single hitbox for uair works really well on BM. I think it was in v.7 (been a while since I touched it), but one iteration did 12% damage, and could kill off the top around 140%. I think this would do really well on BM. His kill options were nerfed heavily in the transition to Beta. His main kill options (usmash, fsmash, bthrow, bair, and dash attack) are either worse, or have a significant risk/reward ratio for them. Expanding his kill options would greatly help him I think.

Fair: I think this move got a knockback increase since v.9? It feels like it, but I don't have the raw data to prove if my guess is correct. If it does, I think you guys got it just right in v.9. It was more fluid there, and the conversions were much better. And maybe a dev could answer this, but why was damage reduced from 12% to a consistent 9%? This is a thing I’ve noticed with BM’s aerials: fair, uair, and dair have been given consistently lower damage output.

Dair: This move has been nerfed since Death was introduced to it. It requires a specific sweetspot for a 6% move that occurs about three seconds later. The base knockback on it feels somewhat high (again, lack of raw data to prove my guessing here), but the knockback growth on a sourspotted dair is extremely low just like the damage. Could the move get a damage and knockback buff on the sourspots for consistency's sake? I can't get this to kill, outside of Death, beyond 120% on several characters.

Fthrow/uthrow: Why the damage nerf? Both moves did respectable damage before for throws. I'm not exactly sure why his other tools changed for the worse, but nerfing his damage output as well just exacerbates other problems.

Dthrow: I agree with the knockback buff here. 20% off a throw is pretty good, and anything else you could get off it is a significant amount of reward for such a low effort grab, but why the nerf in damage on the throw itself? In v.9, it did about 11% on the outset before the poison status effect slowly did additional damage. Why make it take longer for the actual damage to set in for Beta?

Bthrow: The throw already does low enough damage. Why nerf the knockback on one of his already few kill options? BM struggles to kill off the top outside of usmash, and his horizontal kill options already have a very significant risk factor to score his kills. I think you guys had it right in v.9.

Stop: You can SDI the attack, making it that much harder to land an attack on an already high risk move. Other moves with similar capabilities, like Growth, are much more consistent with their reward, and just generally much easier to land. Plus the hitbox size doesn't even match the size of the attack visual. Could the SDI multiplier be reduced some, or at least make the hitbox size match the visual size? It already got nerfed according to the changelog.

Haste: This move has always been quite polarizing, and just now has been drastically nerfed in Beta. I can't get it to kill unless I'm going deep for edgeguards, and I'm right next to the blast line. The area for its activation was nerfed, knockback was nerfed, and damage was nerfed constantly. The original intent for it was to kill, but it can't do that well anymore. Instead of sticking with it as a command grab, could it be a chargeable move that boosts BM's movement speed temporarily? I think much more success would be found this way.

Meteor: Um...I'm not sure what happened with Meteor, but I can't ever use it successfully in neutral. The move requires a significant charge time to kill, but it's lacking in so many ways. It can't be saved like other projectiles, so this limits it as an option to force mindgames, or the occasional kill. BM has poor jumping capabilities, so he has to burn his double jump to even get okay distance off a 4% projectile. It's not a good zoning tool. The kill power on it has been worsened, and has always been inconsistent since BM came out. Could the kill power remain consistent whether the projectile lands successfully or not? The much higher knockback from the explosion itself is incredibly niche. Anyone remotely decent won't just walk into it, and since BM has poor jumping capabilities, it isn't a reliable option to use in the air either. The Meteor, and explosion, even shrink in size if you land while charging it in the air. Plus the fully charged Meteor will retain its charge, so it will reach full charge very shortly after connecting with the ground. It loses significant height. I do think this move needs significant reworking. I don't ever use it, or any other BM main I know uses it. It's just a useless option all around.

Yeah I actually agree with a lot of this especially what you said about Meteor

Just a reminder that from 9b to Beta BM's jump height was nerfed so doing everything is worse now and he gets platform camped for free.

I like the idea of just doing 20% from a dthrow instead of attempting a combo but when its the optimal throw to go for in almost every situation because bthrow cant do anything, fthrow only kills at like 160% at the ledge, and your best followup from uthrow is a di read with an inconsistent uair, then we have some problems

I would be completely fine with haste as it is now if it had any killpower, its extremely upsetting that I can haste a Link at 200% and it won't kill.

If we got 9b fair and uair back it would honestly help so much, the reason uair was changed for beta is because in 9b it was a very strong juggle move that had disjoint and a lingering hitbox, but the way they went about fixing it was so so bad to the point where one of the best ways to use the new uair is to f*** jab lock.

IIRC Fair used to have a slightly bigger hitbox, a better angle, less endlag as well as less landing lag so you can not only use it in neutral, follow up if it hits, or use the pseudo wavedash on a landing fair to microspace. But now it just serves as a very underwhelming move that doesnt do much of anything.

My main way of changing Stop would be to, give it a hitbox that matched the animation, remove the sdi multiplier completely and increase it's endlag by a little bit, this way you can get away with having a move that can beat shield, have good reward when it hits, but can also be reacted to with airdodge or spotdodge, and punished. Sounds fair?

Also for the love of god, bring back 9b Usmash, it was super unique and actually a worthwhile option to go for instead of the slower, weaker option we have now.

Oh wow. I did not know that his jump height was nerfed. I just wonder how a lot of this got approved? It seems extreme.

Did fair get a knockback scaling increase? Because it really seems like it did. A lot of the time it's just hard to follow up out of it because of BM's poor jump height, and how much the opponent can DI up and away with the knockback on it. I love your idea for Stop, too. Removing the SDI multiplier would help a lot. The move is extremely high risk, but rather low reward right now.

You mentioned usmash was nerfed in speed? I know it lost a hitbox. What else happened to it?

Fair knockback scaling's completely different now, its unsafe on hit at early percents and stuff like double fair and fair > uair are super tight to hit now

Usmash was given more startup, more endlag, lost the second hitbox, and it lost some of its killpower as well. Full charge actually gained a lot of power but its really not worth it.

Wow. This is...crazy. So he lost juggle options, his damage output was nerfed a lot, his main combo aerial was nerfed alongside his jump height, mobility was nerfed with the jump height reduction, his kill options were nerfed significantly, and he lost more kill options. Who thought this was good idea?

So I downloaded v.9b just to see what exactly changed, and man, you were right.

-It's so much easier to land fair into fair, fair into uair, or fair into Haste.
-Nair does so much less damage now. If I want to convert from nair into a grounded attack, the damage is 6% less in Beta.
-Uair actually kills at a reasonable percentage, and juggles so much better. The single hitbox on it is so much better for juggling.
-Bthrow is really good at killing.
-Fthrow does 11% compared to 7% now. Dthrow does 11% before the throw launches them. Uthrow does 1% more damage, but it is a better option to set up a juggle with because uair is so much better.
-Meteor covers more angles, and is plausible to use in neutral.
-Haste actually kills, and does 4% more damage.
-His movement overall is just more fluid. Jump height is just much better, and his conversions are more fluid.
-Usmash is better as a juggle option early on. The two hitboxes total 20%, plus I'm noticing it kills about 10% earlier.

The only buff in Beta is Thundaga doing 28% versus 20%.

The one thing that triggered me the hardest was the Bthrow nerf.

like why tho

Nair for DAYS.

CORVID CROW I SUMMON YOU!!! anyway, what do you think of the buffs that BM received?

So I'm liking a LOT of the buffs so far. Dunno why some were changed anyways with Beta, but he feels a lot more fluid.

Jumps: Loving this a lot. His jump height and double jump height were increased a bit. This is awesome. More mobility never hurts. Especially with his long reaching fair. Might help with Meteor in the air some? Having trouble figuring it out because Meteor is still an incredibly laggy projectile, and BM still has short jumps.

Dodges: Roll speed was increased quite a bit. However, spot dodge lost one frame of invincibility. I'm fine with that since BM has good rolls all around. Seems like a good trade off.

Utilt/usmash: The marginally faster utilt doesn't hurt. No complaints there. Usmash is much better now. Pure 90 degree angle makes this ridiculously hard to DI and survive. Plus the extra 10 KBG puts it back around the same level of power prior to Beta. Major buffs all around. I would like to see it come out as fast it did before though. But no complaints about the changes.

Nair: I...can't tell if the angle, KB weight changes, and hitstun are better? Anyone clarify this for me? Overall the other changes were nerfs. I don't get why?

Fair: I can't tell if the hitstun changes and hitlag changes are worse or a buff. I don't really have a metric to compare it against. Anyone clarify here? As for the BKB and KBG changes, it feels much more fluid for conversions and using it into Haste. Thanks for addressing this you guys. Landing lag decrease doesn't hurt either.

Uair: Still very salty about this major hitbox change. It actually killed around 120% on medium weights back in .9b if fresh. Since Beta it lost this kill potential, and the multi hit property just doesn't help it. I've actually gotten hit, several times, because the whole move will not connect at times. They'll just DI out and hit BM. IIRC the change was because it had a lingering hitbox? Why not just remove that and speed up the animation to match a single hitbox instead? It was much more fluid all around in .9b. Several other characters have much greater jumping prowess than BM, and have lingering hitboxes on their aerials.

Dair: I'll still say it again, but can we get some consistency on this move? Death is only active on one frame during the attack, occurs three seconds later, and only does 6% damage. There's no guarantee Death will kill. Especially if the target is on the stage. The actual attack hitbox of the scythe only does 6% damage, and doesn't kill outright until past 100% on the lighter characters. Is there any way to please get a damage buff and knockback buff on the hitboxes that don't apply Death for consistency's sake? BM already has a hard time killing given his kill moves have either a lot of lag, or are quite risky to attempt.

General aerial lag reduction on fair and bair is good though.

Throws: Bthrow was buffed so it has some shadow of potential killing it previously did. Cool.

Only complaints I really have is can we get his fthrow to actually kill at high percents, and revert his fthrow and uthrow damage back to 11% and 10%? Dthrow is simply too good in comparison to his other throws. The damage and reward for doing it is too damn good actually.

Stop: Feels like the hitboxes now cover the full animation? Anyone confirm? Feels like it got buffed.

Haste: Can kill again. This is awesome. Thanks for fixing it.

Meteor: This move still needs major reworking. It's simply too laggy in the air for 4% damage. It takes too long to do on the ground for its inconsistent kill strength. But the single most important thing is can we PLEASE get knockback consistency on the move regardless whether the Meteor actually directly connects with the target or not? Nobody remotely decent will be hit by the explosion itself.

Warp: Still is fine. No complaints here.

Has anybody realized that if you play as , you can combo Haste with DAir?

Mains:

Secondaries:

I suppose this belongs here, no complaints or asking for buffs, just pointing out a thingy for those who are probably curious and would like to know about it - Black Mage's range with his UpB, i took quite a few pictures and used glorious MS Paint to line and circle the maximum effective range of the paths you can take with it, and it's all condensed into 3 pictures (putting it all in 1 ended up getting awful to look at)
Of course it's not 100% precise, but it is still close enough

still feels like there's lots of small things i'd change about the character that would be all he needs from being like bottom 5 to an actual good viable character jeez

i come back after like 6 months, realize just what they did to meteor and leave again

Here is my review on Black Mage in SSF2 Beta.

BLACK MAGE REVIEW

Jab And Dash Attack: Pretty solid attacks, especially since Dash Attack can kill at 70%, which can cause trouble for ZSS players, because they might not be able to recover at a move that can kill at 70%.

Specials: Stop is actually really useful, as it can stun opponents for a good while at full charge, and also, you can store your charge by pressing the shield button. Haste can combo with some attacks, and it can also kill now. If you aren't too far below the blast zone when you use it, you can do a very good Haste to D-Air combo, and get a recovery in if you aren't below the blast zone yet. Speaking of recoveries, Warp is pretty exploitable, but if you get to where your opponent can't follow you, you can get a good recovery in! Meteor, on the other hand, isn't really good of a move. Charging it on the ground can leave you open, and it does really low damage if it hits when you use it in mid-air.

Aerials: Neutral Air isn't really good compared to the other aerials, so I'd recommend not using it often. F-Air is actually pretty solid, as you can follow up into another F-Air or any other attack like Dash Attack, which is great considering if you're having trouble fighting Zero Suit Samus. B-Air is solid as well, considering it's kill power is good. U-Air's a really good move, considering it's a multi-hit move that can kill if you're going all-out on an opponent. D-Air, like I said earlier can be a good follow up attack from Haste, and if you land the sweet spot right, you can actually interfere with an opponent recovery, which if you comboed it from Haste, can be very useful considering if you want a kill at lower percentages.

Smash Attacks: F-Smash has to be the best of the bunch, as you can get some very satisfying kills if you combo it with various attacks! Let's say you're in a giant battle in Classic Mode, and you activate F-Smash. One of your teammates grabs the giant opponent and Thundaga is just passing over your opponent. Use your F-Tilt when the timing's right, and you'll earn your kill of total satisfaction. (Just thinking about it is just dededelicious.) Up Smash can also cause some satisfying kills, I mean, come on, you can kill two opponents at once with it, but like the other Smash Attacks Black Mage has, it takes too long to get it at full charge, as opponents are constantly interrupting your charge. Finally, Down Smash. A good option if you want to kill from both sides, but you can't get any satisfying kills out of it.

Tilts: Forward tilt is actually really good, because if you're in a team battle, you can distract your one of your opponents using F-Tilt continuously against a wall while giving your teammate a chance to come in for a kill. U-Tilt can be a good juggling tool, because you can detect a surprise attack coming from above and stop it. Down Tilt isn't too good now, so I don't use it often. It is a good poking tool, though, and it causes some decent damage.

Well, that is the end of my Black Mage review. I hope you liked it, and I hope you guys have fun with Black Mage!

Don't forget that Dash Attack has super-armor while he's turned into stone (not on the very first frame or two though)
Of course it won't help against getting grabbed though

More information:

• Haste, due to it being a disjointed command grab (just saying this sounds ridiculous enough), can cancel every opponents attacks so long as their hurtbox connects (unless said attack creates a projectile or has a lingering hitbox), which can make it a rather decent anti-edgeguarding tool by jumping away from the ledge then using it

• Meteor can be angled by holding up or down when releasing the special input, which may help a little with his range problems in jump + meteor (and especially when recovering from far up, you can make a spread out meteor shower of sorts)
Also for some reason, sometimes it just decides to ignore shields, and sometimes it doesn't, i have no idea why this happens but i guess it helps in pushing opponents out of their defenses..

• FSmash (both normal and full charge) and Full-Charge DSmash cause decent damage against the opponent's shield, though Down Smash is slightly better because it hits multiple times, and has no risk of backfiring from a powershield.
If the opponent is unlucky enough, a full charge Down-Smash + a few DTilts (or SHFFL'd BAirs) could decimate their shield (of course this would be very situational, but when the opportunity arises..)
Either way, if you got enough space, fully charging a down-smash will put a lot of stress on the opponent's shield, should they attempt to tank it out

• Stop can still paralyze shielding opponents (unless it was a powershield, in which case nothing happens at all), and because they can't SDI away, this makes it unavoidable to be punished with a grab or smash attacks (Unfortunately you cannot brute force a shieldbreak this way, because as soon as the shield gets hit, the paralysis is cancelled immediately)