i thought tier lists were made based on how good the characters are, not based on how much you love or hate a character.

why is GnW so low on the tier list? he has a lot of disjoints, the best spike in the game, can crouch under spacie lazers, and chibi blaster, and he has a dthrow kill confirm. Just because fair sucks dosen't mean the character sucks! Also he can cancel/bounce pretty much any projectile with d-tilt, and has above average airspeed and groundspeed.

My tier list that I made for fun. Kinda how I see the state of the roster right now. I have the obligatory Pichu in F-tier as everyone else has been doing, I did it for memes. I do think he's bad but probably not as bad as people say he is.

First time making a tier list so obviously not the best and shouldn't be taken super seriously. Just want to hear thoughts from other people

I made a tier list for SSF2 with help from Peppermint Hippos on the SSF2 reddit community. I'm willing to talk about why I placed each character in a certain tier.
https://imgur.com/a/1fPd1PT

That tier list is too irregular
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So this tier list is according in general and my thoughts (more or less), let me know if there's any problem in this.

oh god this tier list is awful

Ichigo and Marth are nowhere close to being the best characters in the game. They're very good characters and a lot of people play them, but other characters are clearly better
Shiek, Meta Knight, and Falco are definitely top 5, but should be S tier
Why the f*** is Mega Man in A+ tier, he's a contender for bottom 10 in the game
Same with Fox, he got f*** in this patch
Samus is actually fine
Chibi is not top 10 wtf, put him mid-tier
Luigi is also fine
C. Falcon and Lloyd are also fine in my opinion, but a lot of people would argue lloyd should be a lot better and C. Falcon should be placed higher or lower
Tails and Pac-man are probably fine where they are now
Link is not B+ tier, he's easily top 10
Pika is extremely good and should be higher
Pit should be lower
Mario is probably fine
DK should be lower
Peach is top 5. there is no doubt about that why the f*** did you put her in B- tier
Sora is fine
Sonic and Goku should be much much lower
Zelda is easily top 10 as well
Ness is either fine or should be lower
GnW is one of the worst characters in the game, bottom 3 for sure
Jiggs is fine
Naruto is either fine or should be a bit higher
Kirby should be much higher, he's a contender for top 10 and is definitely top 15
Wario should be in mid tier, not low
Yoshi should probably be a bit higher
BDee, Isaac, and Bowser are fine. I think
ZSS should probably be on the verge of mid-low tier
Luffy should be mid-tier
BM and BBM are fine
Pichu is the worst in the game
Sandbag is not, he is an actual character with actual capabilities, he is low tier though.

Chibi is top 10, if anything he should be a bit higher. Also BDee is at least a mid tier, Bowser and Isaac are high tiers.
EDIT: Also here is my tier list
Sonic and Pichu are tied in last btw

Many tier list here are biased. Either because the author hates/likes the character or doesn't know how to use it.

No, my tier list isn't biased. Even tho I like BDee and I put him in a higher spot then most, this is because the is how good he is imo and how great his potential is.

Terrible recovery, Haste is really hard to hit, Meteor suxks, Stop is unreliable, Dair doesn't reliably kill, etc.

Let's get some discussion going.

A lot of these tier lists I've seen are...pretty poor, not gonna lie. So yeah, here's my take on things.

I'll occasionally check back and respond to these cause I've noticed a pattern of responses of tier lists, but nobody's actually discussing.


Alright, so a couple of things:
1. Fox has an incredible neutral. Laser can force approaches very easily by constantly racking up damage, and his excellent run speed and initial dash allows him to effectively approach with some pretty good jump-in options and pokes. Black Mage doesn't. He's slow. Meteor is very predictable and punishable because he can't angle it to protect himself unless he jumps. Furthermore, he's really slow and he doesn't really have the range or projectile game to force approaches. Stop CAN be charged to potentially force approaches, but the problem is, you don't really have much to fear from being hit by Stop due to how easy it is to SDI.

2. Fox's punish game is pretty good. He's got a pretty nice combo game, and some pretty nice kill confirms such as DThrow -> techchase read or Jab -> Up Smash which are pretty low cost commitments. Whilst Black Mage has some pretty good aerials, it doesn't have the speed to really follow up from his combo game well, his juggle game is much weaker as his Beta up air kinda sucks, and he doesn't get much reward for landing a grab or Haste. Effectively, Black Mage's punish game will mostly come for edgeguarding, and he's quite mediocre at it.

3. Fox's offstage is awful, but has some options. Not much else to say. Black Mage also has an awful offstage because once he Up-B's, he's completely screwed and he loses all of what limited mixup potential he has due to how telegraphed his recovery is. It's easy to bully both characters in disadvantage because Fox is combo food and Black Mage can't really land.

This brings us to the ultimate point of this debate.
Fox has a good enough neutral to make up for his bad disadvantage. Black Mage doesn't.

I quote. I'm sorry about that, but I'm also confused about G&W near bottom 5. Just adding, I don't feel he's that bad - his recovery makes up a lot for his low durability, as it makes him hard to gimp and mid-air jumping before using it can basically recover from the bottom of Final D., for example, and it's really good horizontally, also. His up smash kills around 100%*; down smash has a sweet spot that kills around 75%*; back air is disjointed and safe on shield; neutral air comboes really good into itself, up air and up special; forward air can be used off the ledge, and paired with his recovery, gimps opponents easily (to not say down air, again, that spikes). His projectile, albeit slow, comes on a certain angle that punish approaches coming from air. Up tilt comboes into itself against heavier characters, also leading to neutral air; his jab comes fast and comboes into down tilt, grab or even side tilt, that may lead to a gimp. Oil panic also counters certain types of zoning, like Link's arrow + bomb, which after charging the bucket kills at around 15% (and one-hit KOes without SDI, as long as I tested). Just adding another example, using bucket on Falco's lasers kills at 60% near ledge (as he can't reach it again). He also has 2 windboxes (up air, that punishes characters with high end lag on its down air; and down tilt - read quote). Also, Judgement (Side Special) causes mind games, as 5 pressures shield, 4 directly breaks it, and 9 does what everyone knows. 1 and 2 are the only really bad ones, but it's worth it. I know all that is probably old news but I just want to understand why he's so low on the tier list, as on my experience he's capable of dealing with many top 15s, specially considering that G&W faced like, two minor nerfs, and a lot of buffs on the last patch. Did he really dropped that much? How?

*I'm talking about uncharged smashes.

Also, if there are grammar errors, forgive me. Can't speak english that well.