Oh yeah, people complain so much about Dthrow. Yet they don't know, they can DI down and tech. And with Wario's crappy grab range, I believe it's fair.

Or, it could be replaced by an altered Brawl/4 Dthrow instead. Altered in the sense that it has fixed knockback, which gives Wario the potential for some followups. While silencing everyone, this new throw will make Wario's combo game a little more interesting. It could potentially be Wario's backwards version of his Fthrow, only easier to followup due to forcing opponents backwards, and Wario's worst grab range.

Dthrow is annoying with lag because you often can't tech in time on reaction with lag. However, it's pretty benign most of the time, and, as you said, getting grabbed by Wario isn't exactly a very frequent occurrence. I like it the way it is: it adds a new layer to edgeguarding, and it rewards adventurous tech chases and play.

Too bad, cause it's deemed pretty OP right now and I think they're planning on toning it down in the future. That's 2 down, 3 to go.

At this point I really don't see much progress with Wario. Everyone's made their point, and some changes have pretty much been set in stone anyway. After all that's been settled, it's quite lonely in here. But, there's a reason for it anyway.

I know, Wario's supposed to be based off his PM counterpart. But honestly, I believe it doesn't work in this game right now.

As a summary from my experiences with Wario, he's the character you could play if you really want to stress and give yourself a hard time competitively. In order to use him well, you have to dedicate huge amount of time, respect every threat, and accept the fact that against solid players, you just can't win consistently.

I don't think it's likely for "all things to be settled" for a Smash character less than a year after release lol
(If I'm interpreting your statement correctly.)

I think Wario still has an enormous amount of untapped potential in aerial Shoulder Bash. The thing autocancels on landing, for Pete's sake! I still have to test this more extensively, but I think that landing an aerial Shoulder Bash on shield at the right height guarantees a grab, so Wario might actually have a semi-reliable setup into one of the dopiest KO throws in the game.

No, Aerial Shoulder Bash doesn't autocancel on landing. It ALMOST does, since it still has a tiny bit of endlag on it.

Shielded Aerial Shoulder Bash into grab at certain heights? Not a chance. It's still very unsafe on shield, just like its grounded counterpart. In terms of certain heights, it only keeps Wario safe from some OoS options.

Remember that Wario has the shortest grab range in the game, and it's one of the slowest grabs as well. Which means the guaranteed grab after a shielded Aerial Shoulder Bash is pretty much impossible.

If you really want a guarantee into "one of the dopiest KO throws in the game" (DI down and tech, c'mon now), use Sourspot Bair while landing. I cannot stress this enough; every other person who has tried out Wario has NEVER done this guarantee, and it makes me smh sometimes.

And trust me, I've tapped the crap outta Aerial Shoulder Bash, and there's nothing new for me to learn about what it can do.

Just to clear up what we talked about on IRC for those who may be reading the thread, a move autocancelling does not mean that it is lagless on landing. It simply means that its landing lag is equal to that of an empty jump, which is the case with aerial Shoulder Bash.

Some moves do have no landing lag tho. For instance, Fox's nair has no landlag if you land before/after the Hitbox is out. Notably it has less landing lag than landing from an empty jump (3 frames instead of 4)

Now that everyone's gone, time for me to figure out what else is wrong with Wario.

Edit: Oh boy, found something already.

Wario's Corkscrew near the edge is terrible. I get offstage, and then I go for the edge with Corkscrew. Lo and behold, MK just uses Fsmash to hit Wario just before he grabs the edge, and Wario's using Corkscrew at the lowest height possible.

This means that if Wario is forced to recover low, he's done. Some other characters that can hit his Corkscrew at the lowest height are like Black Mage, Mario, and DK.

That's true of a ton of characters: Mario, DK, Samus, BBM, Wario, Chibi, Ichigo, etc. That isn't really unique.

I really don't like how easy it is, though. Compared to others aside from BBM, Wario's forced to go for the same exact position if he's gimped that way.

While others like Mario can gain more height with Tornado and position with Cape, Ichigo can re-position and hit standing edgeguarders with his sword while recovering, Chibi can SideB and re-position, DK can hit edgeguarders onstage with his long limbs.

If I had a nickel for every time MK, Marth, or BM gimped me at the edge by just standing and using attacks, I'd be rich enough to buy a WiiU and play Smash 4 just so I don't experience this as often.

I decided to check what other moves Wario might have that beat Meta Knight's jab. I've gone through ground normals thus far. Here are the results:

- Jab1 has two outcomes. At almost maximum spacing it will cleanly beat Meta Knight's jab, causing him to get hit. I think this is thanks to the glitch where out-prioritizing a disjoint can cause its owner to get hit. However, if Wario jabs too close the attacks will clank, putting Wario at a frame disadvantage because he completes his Jab1 animation while Meta Knight resets to a neutral standing state instantly.

- Ftilt has the same two spacing-dependant outcomes as Jab1, but opposite requirements. It will beat it when used close, but clank with frame disadvantage when used at max distance.

- Fsmash is the same as Jab1; hits Meta Knight at max spacing but causes a clank when used close.

- Dtilt beats it almost always. There seems to be a specific mid-distance spacing that causes a clank.

- Dsmash beats it up close but clanks at maximum spacing.

(This was all tested with Wario as Player 1 and Meta Knight as Player 2. I still have to test whether port priority makes any difference.)


Soooo.... yeah. All of Wario's ground normals except Utilt and Usmash can outright beat Meta Knight's jab. Turns out that Dsmash may not even be his best option, let alone his only one. SSF2, why you so silly.

Thanks for the testing. While your at it, can you test the knockback on both grounded and aerial Chomp?

I swear the aerial Chomp usually has less set knockback than the grounded version. But for some reason, their knockbacks will switch around at random times.

Everything you tested is port dependent

The day Chomp, Dthrow, and Dash Attack get nerfed is the day I cri evrytiem.