But has back throw and downthrow to fair at killing percents or just using fair kills. At some occassions I've used nair and bair to kill. DK still has armour on his up b. His punish game pretty good because in early percents I've been able to rack up damage through a series of upthrows or dthrows to nairs or upairs.

I'll try and hit on everything I can. As a note, this tier list is aimed at estimating how competitive meta will play out, so I try to estimate how a character will fall when at the highest level of play.

: I wanted to be EXTREMELY conservative with S-tier, but Falco is consistently the one character that can perform well in every situation, even in spite of his weight and Up-B. Think of everything that makes Fox A-tier, then add hitstun on lasers, the best double jump in the game, a severely gimping Dair, a better D-tilt and better reflector. Where Fox can struggle in neutral and offstage, Falco doesn't which propels him to the top of the pack.

: He'd be higher if he wasn't so dang slow. He trades well, but trading doesn't end stocks efficiently. A lot of his moves have a long TTS (time to start) relative to the top tier characters, and that makes rushdown MUs challenging. Also, good edge guarding characters (like Sheik) will abuse his recovery. He's good, just not that good.

: As has been said, he can kill confirm at like 60% and is actually rather quick with great grabs, OOS options, and ways to get down from the air. Rushdowns are his greatest challenge, but neutral B and great edge guards through a giant Fair and DownB ledge cancel become great assets to keep his top spot.

: She's never been particularly good at killing, but that never stopped her from being top 10. Think of her now as Sm4sh Sheik but a STRONGER Fair (rather than weaker). Her combo game is nuts, virtually everything in her kit is safe, and with Bouncing Fish, she has an incredible recovery which is a big gain from v0.9b.

: That ordering wasn't necessarily in terms of which was better. They both have issues!

: She has some room to move up, but no turnips while floating and a pretty average ground game hold her back. I forsee her landing at the top of C or bottom of B-tier, especially if she can toss turnips while floating down the road.

: I would agree; my A-tier internal ordering was a little off. He's good, but being a combo weight will hurt against the very best.

: I think her spot is fair seeing who is ahead of her and who is behind her. I actually think her neutral is great, especially with her new Nair. She lost little and gained much from v0.9b, and she was already top 5 there. Disjoints and a solid recovery, good combo game make her a real threat for everyone in her tier... but her height and lower kill power are an issue.

: I'm open to him moving, just don't have much play experience. The reduced effectiveness of Down-B and Up-B definitely hurt, but Up Smash, his general speed, and edge guarding ability are still good. Thanks for bringing the little rat up!

: He was actually really close to A-tier in v0.9b. While some of his jank is gone, he still has perhaps the most vicious combos in the game (plus freaking long limbs, giving him big presence). So while he struggles with projectiles and recovering, he can butcher certain characters and dominate certain stages. #uptiltfordays If not middle of B, lower B would suit him.

:He's basically the same as v0.9b, but a little more manageable. Good combo game, solid projectile game, solid edge guard. Just has short limbs and trouble killing + a linear recovery holding him back.

: He's faster than ever before and his bombs are very meaningful, giving him a lot more options than previously. Plus being a swordy with disjoints and solid kill options gives him some good tools to push high. But his linear recovery and weight allow the top tiers to bust him up quite a bit. Projectile priority also helps him out a bit.

The main issue with is simply his matchups. Not only does his flaws affect him more in beta compared to 0.9b given how the meta has shifted to rushdowns and characters with great disjoints. Naruto would simply struggle against most swordfighters since they can outspace them, and rushdowns can easily approach naruto and to violate his recovery at all costs.

I would say to at least put in S tier. Lately Gax and TheBestG have been doing very well in tournaments to keep Fox a huge tournament threat.

Yea I was a bit wrong about Donkey Kong's Killpower. But his neutral being dependent on fishing for grabs, not having a way to deal with a projectile, being combo food which is even more exploitable than bowser's due to his lackluster neutral, and overall bad matchups such as of course rushdowns, swordfighters, and of course Mega Man would really hurt him from doing significantly well in tournaments.

Simply put seems to be more prominent in the metagame compared to . He has the perfect combination in a meta like Beta's of being hard to combo, having a great neutral, having disjointed range, having great frame data, a consistently great recovery, and good kill options. That combination makes meta knight have a ton of safety, and quite a bit of reward. And his overall safety makes up for his lightness in general since its hard to rack damage on Meta Knight. While is more prone to combo and has more issues securing stocks which may be a bit more problematic in the current meta.

is a bit of a special case. Yea sure her groundgame isn't great. But her double jump cancel and floating techniques at least gives her more options towards covering stage options and she can be rather hard to predict since she can use floating for retreats and she can use it to space for a specific point of an aerial where it is safe. Her high learning curve at least comes with great compensation and I feel like if a main exploits her strengths in tournaments, she will honestly be placing high.

Regarding . Having a linear recovery and being combo food is a pretty terrible combination *cough cough* Yoshi *cough cough*. That pretty much means that in a couple wins in neutral for the opponent and if not one depending on the matchup. That means they can secure a stock since they can just combo
for days and then put him offstage for a gimp. It doesn't help that also possesses pretty poor frame data and can't go up against reflector-based characters which includes the Spacies which would really hurt him in Tournament Brackets. It isn't like he has the best neutral anyways.

is obviously more faster , even though he's weaker i feel he's moved up in the tier list.

i honestly think hasnt moved in the tier list or barely did but combos good though.

i feel would be a little bit below mid-tier due to decrease in weight and other situations he still is fun to play.

Bandana Dee was never changed? But he definently is high tier. His weight issues get compensated by his safe options and ridiculously broken priority and great frame data and mobility along with some disjointed options which makes it hard for opponents to exploit his lightness. Ichigo is definently a better character in beta tho, but probably Mid-Tier due to frame data problems.

Tier list updated from given feedback.

S-tier - pros vastly outweigh cons; no MUs worse than 50-50


A-tier - pros well exceed cons; a few notable poor MUs


B-tier - pros still outweigh cons, but cons are exploitable, creating more poor/even MUs



C-tier - "balanced" pros and cons; a wide spread of good/bad MUs



D-tier - cons outweigh pros; will struggle against high/mid tiers



E-tier - crippling flaws or little positives to compete with

People will overrate the spacies because they have an established meta. They aren't S-tier, it's just that people haven't optimized the anti-spacie punish game and the spacies already have a pretty jump-started metagame, with a lot of development. Results can't be the only metric two months into a game.

However it is hard to abuse their flaws when they are hard to put offstage and when they have such safe options. That and the fact that they don't really have any particularly "bad" matchups in general.

I feel like that's an assumption from lack of testing/experience. Both spacies struggle against a Campy Kirby, Zelda, Sandbag, because one mistake can equal death in those MUs. Or a Link/Samus with a refine punish game is also difficult as both of them have great tools to get them off-stage and keep them off.

Marth's punish game is also better on Spacies than v0.9b. As well as Mario and Falcon is just being better in-general because of their buffs complemented of physic adjustments.

Even with the larger cast, this demo is shaping up to be as balanced as v0.9b. I really don't know about even discussing a tier-list yet. There probably 20 characters I think you could make the argument for being in Top-5. Every character feels like they win some MUs hard and lose some MUs even harder.

It will take time, so these will clearly continue to shape as meta unfolds. But a lot can be learned even in early experiences.

I don't see Kirby being particularly challenging, because both Falco and Fox can decide to not approach and press B forever; when Kirby does approach, both characters have better frame data, longer limbs, and an easier time killing the puffball than in reverse. Kirby is overly reliant on getting them offstage which is hard if a that player hugs center stage all match.

Zelda does shape up well against them, Fox more than Falco because lasers. But she's a bit slower here than v0.9b with some jank toned down and kill power reduced.

Sandbag can't edgeguard without great risk to itself, thereby being virtually unable to challenge Fox/Falco in their greatest weakness. Also, he's a fat hurtbox.

Marth has always done well against fast fallers. Tipper F-smash on a grounded opponent is bread-and-butter next to Dair spikes. So he succeeds against Fox, but Falco's lasers add a new dynamic challenge to the MU.

Mario improved, but spacies are faster with similar neutral options. Mario has strong edge presence and recovery, which helps. But it's still a tough MU. Captain Falcon is worse with no projectile and a linear recovery (and combo weight).

Link/Samus are just too slow once their space is invaded, but Link has disjoints. Plus, the weight of both characters does not bode well against Fox/Falco combo game. Link especially is a losing MU here. Samus can be a bit more slippery once airborne.

I think Sheik, Marth, Luigi, Goku, ZSS have positive MUs against Fox and even against Falco (Marth 45/55 because lasers). There's a bit of a trend w/ Falco: him having a fast projectile with hitstun drastically shapes a lot of MUs that Fox would otherwise fair poorly in, thus fueling his success over Fox.

Marth actually loses to fox and I think you overrated him a bit, I normally put him towards the bottom of A tier for two reasons

1- Matchup spread
Marth has strange matchups against a lot of characters, for example bowser. A lot of characters tend to go even or slightly lose to marth, but I feel that pushes him below a character like fox who only loses a few matchups
2- Struggling to get the kill- Marth has easy bread and butter combos, and can kill stocks early with a tipper up air or a dair spike, but when he doesn't get one of those, it can be very difficult for marth to kill. He has to resort to side b, which can be easily read and punished. This holds him back in a LOT of matchups, especially against the top tiers.

But he does have great frame data, a solid disjoint, above average recovery, and good ground/short hop aerial speed.

I think the gains of a different game engine plus a slightly slower Fox that really didn't gain anything going into Beta has tipped that MU towards even. Though I do agree that Marth loses to certain characters that you wouldn't expect him to.

Would it perhaps be more appropriate to move both of them down in A-tier, allowing some shuffling with Sheik, MK, Goku, Lloyd? I think Goku and Lloyd could stand to move up a few spots.

Yea and given that everyone has losing matchups. We have to center around whose matchup spread is the best in the cast. And the spacies simply have one of the best mu spread, maybe not a perfect mu spread (They aren't broken) but it is still strong and they have overwhelming strengths.

But Kirby can duck forever

I agree that Marth's matchups are wonky. But against fox in particular, I think it's either even or favored for Marth. His punish game off early percent grabs is great, and edgeguarding Fox is easier in this game, since he has less angles. He also might be able to chaingrab on reaction, at least offline.

At least the way I play Marth (dash dance a lot for no reason), and with my skill level (low), Marth seems to lose slightly mainly to characters that outrange him (Isaac, Bowser, Luffy, Ichigo?) and those that can take advantage of his lack of constant hitboxes (rushdown chars?). And he loses badly to vending machines (Samus, Mega Man).

Marth does struggle killing, but he also has nair, edguards, and upB off the top.