You'd have to make sure that things like shine -> usmash were still things, because otherwise you'd seriously nerf his combo game.

Really? I hardly ever use Shine-Usmash/Grab. I mainly sometimes do Shine Bair (don't assassinate me please) and Shine Utilt.

Even with a very slight hitlag reduction, midair shine->bair would still work because you don't have to wait for jumpsquat to end before doing bair, you can starts it right away.

Why should it not jab reset?

The BM echoe also happens with Lasers, this MU is not easy when Fox can punish an entire stock of you by literally standing besides you holding DownB/mashing B

And well, I just think that Fox's FF status it's a little bit too much in this game, it makes him so odd in some situations and the supposed fact that "he dies earlier" doesn't work versus characters that focus on vertical kills like BM. And I know all that stuff of "well Fox is easy to gimp!" but he can do the same to you, and sometimes even more easily thanks to his Shine.

Aside from that, BAir is the only move I've ever felt like it's just downright stupid. Lingering hitbox, great KB, damage, safe on shield, the list goes on. It's just too much, maybe if it had the properties of a sex kick (the %/KB gets weaker by time) it would be understandable, but right now the move feels rather frustrating when you are at kill % (Unless Fox's screw up, BM has no chance of doing anything against the move)

But what am I complaining about jank. Brb going back to Haste people up.

What?

From the outside it seems Fox has a problem with his base KB on shine but it definitely is the hitlag coupled with his incredible range that allow these free followups.

SSF2 fox should NOT be able to combo after shine at all, if it wasn't for wavedashing it wouldn't be possible with melee Fox.
& his Nair does need more landing lag. these are the only major changes I'd suggest for a better game, I mean Fox is pretty damn good like with the top 3 good.

Translation: Fox is suppose to be a glass-cannon with high-speed offense in that he gets KO'd and forced into gimp situation very easily of the sides. Black Mage has slow/mediocre neutral and heavily rely on Vertical kills, while Fox has some of the best neutral in the game because his speed and his fall-speed makes him difficult to kill off the top. It's a bad MU for Black Mage.

Though, Black Mage's upward kill options could stand to be stronger. He struggles to kill at 120% off the top on Tower of Salvation.
_______________
@GMaelStrom
Fox definitely isn't top-3. He still can be punish hard and characters (like Sheik, Kirby, Zelda, Pikachu, etc.) can still easily kill him off a single conversion that gets him off-stage. While he's better at somethings than other top-tiers, he's more vulnerable than any of them defensively. He also doesn't do too well against the other top-tiers either

The main problem with Fox is that half his moves have broken priority, throws that can't be DI with free follow-ups into kill moves, Shine-Cancel is easy as hell, and some characters have no moves to hit him out of his recovery.

But the main thing is that Fox is extremely easy to use due to buffer inputs and keyboards simplifying execution; there isn't a Fox player online who can't multi-shine x5. And he's very overused because of this. I would almost say he's even easier to pick-up and abuse than Lloyd and DK. Everyone pockets one of those 3 characters. But Fox is overbearing to fight due to priority issues, and mindless rushdown with him actually works effectively as mid-level. It's pathetic.

I think the top players like Aegis, SS, and DS have really pushed Fox to the point where it's possible he's S tier. I think the things that are pulling him back from being top 3 are how easy it is to punish and combo him and his MUs with top tiers. I've seen some Fox players online and damn they make Fox look so easy and braindead.

No I mean I know what he was saying, but I was like WTF.

The reason was I hardly ever see BM kill off the top unless its with up smash or a back throw when someone D.I.'s up. I thought he had great vertical KO'ing power with the characters confused since Fox's main KO options are ones that kill off the top.

Yeah Fox is a fast faller, the highest accelerated falling speed in the game, so he will always be hard to kill off the top, but why just not kill him vertically?

If I wanted to KO someone off the top, it would be BM who is a below average faller and gets KO'ed off the top early.

@Cruisin
That still doesn't stop him having bad MUs.

What he said. The point I especially agree with is the pick-up and abuse part. I swear, with Fox, Nair/Utilt/Usmash/Bair/Shine and UthrowUair is really all you really need if you're going to pickup Fox and spam.

The auto-combos suck, but there are Fox-players that do just Shine-Cancel > Bair repetitively and they get a ton of mileage just because some characters who get pinned can't immediately give an answer to Bair's non-weakening hitbox.

I'm sorry, but Fox is easy as hell. Yes he has advance stuff, but so does Lloyd. I mean seriously. Fast fall n-air, fast b-air (b-air is extremely stupid), up-throw u-air, etc. Not only that, but multi-shining is extremely easy. It took me weeks to perform multi-shining in Melee (consistently). Here I learned how to do it in just a couple of seconds. I respect players like Aegis, but when I'm playing randoms and someone switches to Fox and spams the stuff I just mentioned... It just irritates me. I need to start playing Lloyd.

Fox has a lot of potential for creativity, and I don't think it's possible to condense Fox's punish game down to auto-combos without losing a lot. Things like single-hit uair, weak nair, fair, aerial Shine followups, offensive Firefox and Illusion, and dtilt are all nonobvious to fully use. Sure, if you just learned the bare minimum to combo with Fox (nair -> Shine -> grab -> uthrow -> uair, nair -> Shine -> bair), you could play, but that's true of most characters (It's so easy to play Peach! Turnip -> dair -> nair works at nearly every percent! It's so easy to play Tails! Dtilt -> side-B -> fair works at a ton of percents!). If you're mad that bread-and-butter combos exist that work in a wide range of situations, you need to find a different video game. You can think that Fox makes bad players too good, but you can change that without completely upending his combo game (as removing Shine combos would) or nerfing everything about him. Soft bair will add a lot of nuance, but even with current bair it's not like Fox is a braindead character.

Also, is multishining even very good? People act like multishining is super broken now that it's not that hard, but I think the main reason Westballz can use it so much is because no one is used to it in Melee. It's overkill at low percents for combos when shine -> grab -> combo works just as well, it doesn't link into anything at other percents, and on shields it's really more to show off than to actually hit them because you should really be mixing up your shield pressure.

About the BM v Fox MU: Fox wins fairly handily because BM is not equipped to deal with rushdown, but don't underestimate BM's punishes. Offstage is no bueno for Fox, and BM has some decent long-range tools in the MU. Not too hard to win, but it's IMO one of the more stressful Fox MU's just because a single dthrow -> tech-chase Haste -> offstage -> death can be so sudden.

My b