Well, the frustrating part is that online play definitely aids camp. It's difficult to maneuver around spammed projectiles or engage defensive characters when you're not 100% sure you can convert something or are worried about missing an input. Play a camper in a semi-laggy game, then play offline. It's night and day. That's why I really appreciate how smooth my connection is with guys like SS, reimu, rem, and others. There are still plenty of times where the game will jump at the perfectly wrong time and I can't do what I want, but if it happens on a minor scale against people who try to play the game cool, I can't complain. It's the nature of the beast. I can't get 100% smooth melee or PM netplay games, either. Campers are never going to win on a consistent basis, so they don't really mean anything to me. Even if I struggle more than I should in a match, I know most would get bodied without input lag. And they generally get bodied with it. I wouldn't indict the game before calling out the community for being so bread and butter sometimes. It's not like we're playing for money.

^+1. I really don't think any projectiles are really broken (maybe Rasengan), and I think the reason campers can do fairly well (better than they could with a non-campy character) is because of input lag. I have a bad connection, so I can definitely see that camping is favored over characters like Tails: most of the time, I can't even do a good combo because of input lag, so it's not like I can punish hard or anything like that. I also don't really have a problem with campy characters in general: it's a playstyle, and I support variety in the game so that all characters don't just scream "SPARTA!" and rush the enemy. I think that the focus should be on removing brainless camping, like rotating a set of projectiles endlessly, or spamming one move. I also think there should be a problem with characters who try to stall a match, like is sometimes a viable strategy with Wario: try and keep the opponent from approaching, and then you have an OHKO and they don't. Camping isn't stalling: it's fighting from a distance in a smart way. Instead of nerfing defensive characters or changing everyone so that they all charge each other, the focus should be on keeping brainless strategies from winning and to require thought and skill to win.

Ganondoof also makes an excellent point that many characters simply don't have the tools to approach all the time. You can't really fault Link players for wanting to camp when there are so few other viable ways to approach. Certainly characters like Naruto can be played aggressively and win, as SS and others show. However, some characters really don't have the tools to approach against characters with disjoints, speedy and mobile characters, and others, and we should be cognizant of that fact.

tl:dr I rant too much

Sorry, I'm kind of confused here. Did you mean "shouldn't"? Right after that you say it's sometimes a viable strategy with Wario.

By the way, fully-charged Wario Waft isn't really an OHKO until about 50-60% (of course this varies by character). You can also DI the launch.


Thank you. Some people don't realize this and end up saying things like "boring", and it's simply because I don't want to get hit by anything that outranges me. I could be boring, but at least I'm not rushing with Wario like an idiot (unless I get mad ) And hey, Wario is perfectly fine being left alone to charge Wario Waft. The only time Wario should try to approach his opponents is when he has Wario Waft charged to a suitable level (40%-60%=Fully charged, 70%-85%=Almost full, 90% and higher = halfway full [of course, character-dependent]). Only using Wario Waft at full charge isn't the correct way to use it.

What I mean is that I don't think there's anything wrong with camping, where you use projectiles to fight from a distance where you can't be hurt as easily. I do have a problem with characters who try to stall matches or simply not really fight. This doesn't just have to be projectiles: it can be disjoints (Ichigos sometimes just sit there), charged moves (Waft, Rasengan, Charge Shot, etc.), because there's a big difference between using projectiles as harassment and as an approach and pressure tool and using them to stall the match while you charge Rasengan.

Tru dat on the Waft data: I haven't played Wario too much and forgot the numbers. It is really good, however, and it is definitely one of the best finishers in the game.

If I'm not doing that then I'm wavelanding everywhere.

But that's not really camping as much as it is daring you to challenge him. If he times out from just sitting there that is the other player's fault for being a chicken.

It really isn't him camping as much as stalling. It can be really effective though: approaching with Kirby or Jigglypuff against Ichigo is really difficult, and he has an extreme advantage from timing out rather than approaching. If you don't have viable approaches, then it isn't really your fault for not being audacious as much as it is a poor MU and bad design.

If stalling for Wario Waft isn't okay, then what should happen to Wario?

Should his Wario Waft be nerfed? Maybe give it a longer charge time, or decrease the launch properties on it?

Or could Wario Waft's charging method change drastically? The new method I thought of is this: Wario gains Wario Waft charge whenever he causes % on his opponents. He can still charge Wario Waft by letting time go by, but the time to charge it is increased by 50%.

Along with the new charge method, maybe some of Wario's moves could change in order to give him more range to deal with disjoint characters? I took Wario's Fsmash, Usmash, and Fair in Smash 4 as examples of moves with more range than the moves he currently has. These moves could help him rack % at safer distances and help him with MUs that force him to stall (Metaknight is the #1 candidate for this).

Just some of my thoughts of possible solutions for stalling with Wario Waft. I think the Wario Waft nerf would be easier to do, but the new charge method is pretty cool.

Gotta bait Ichigo's response tho. And in my experience its not to hard to spot dodge his everything :3. The jiggs matchup isnt nearly as bad as it was last patch, and its probably one of the easier sword matchups for Kirby, which is honestly pretty surprising.

Wario needs a chomp nerf. That move is way too effective for how campy it is. You can't even call it an attack, because it's the definition of non aggression. It shouldn't be any more effective than Zelda's neutral B, yet I've seen it used as a great punish/combo starter and edge guarding tool. I don't know how you go about nerfing it. My suggestion would be minimizing the range (I honestly feel like I'm getting sucked into it like Kirby's B) and also not allowing it to be held, so edge guarding with it actually requires some bit of skill.

Maybe take away Chomp's combo potential. This includes Chain Chomp. That way, Wario still has one of his only key methods for taking away a stock.

The hitbox should probably be changed too. His entire body shouldn't suck the opponent into his mouth.

I think the ability to hold Chomp should remain, since plenty of moves can outrange it and hit Wario. They should probably reduce the amount of time that you can hold Chomp for.

In exchange for combo removal with Chomp, I'd like the direction of its launch to be like Wario's Dthrow: Horizontal and slightly downwards. This allows Wario to go for more tech chases, and doesn't label Chomp as only a Wario-cide when it's combo potential is removed. I believe that this will give Wario more chances to close in on his opponents than how few chances he has in this patch.

Chomp should be smaller (if its range is a problem), and it should be more like an actual throw in terms of its knock back then.

It shouldn't have any upward range imo. Like, you should be able to dair a chomp and not get eaten. Also, it seems to suck you in even if you jump past it. I just played doof and saved the replay so I'll post a gif of what I mean.

Yeah, I noticed that Chomp sort of sucks in opponents when they get too close to the mouth.

Also, I was very rusty during our matches, sparty. I lack knowledge on how to fight Fox too.

You had a lot of success when you chomped, but Fox can do a lot of damage off one hit. It helped that we weren't on 3DS this time. Fox needs a little more room to move around.

Why does chomp grab people during knockdown?

Why does dash attack kill fast fallers at 50%

Why does down throw kill fast fallers at -50%

Im glad ganondoof is playing wario to expose the jankness.