I Think Pac/DK is even and that's what my chart says-

The big thing is that DK has a lot of range to deal with and easily punish Pac for a lot when he gets in, Pac actually is such a good combo weight for DK things to happen, and even if his attempts are going to be limited if the pac is competent, or gets setup, usually only takes 2 or 3 instances to clear up a stock. Pac will get lots of damage if he gets in, but outside of edgeguards/hydrant/Key it's actually hard for him to end DK stocks. Also it's slightly easier for DK to gimp Pac than vice versa- unless galacta glitch setup pac has few good options to stop DK from recovering high. Meanwhile Pac options are slow enough that DK can edgeguard just as well. Overall, this matchup is predicated on stages, not too sure on either side other than DK wants triplats and platforms in general and Pac wants flatter places.

My data was limited, and I need to fight more/better 's but I def can see this matchup possibly being at best even and maybe Pac wins.

I feel like overpowers the heavy characters, and , given that if they get caught in a Getsuga Tenshō that's an easy ~50% or possibly death by F/U-Smash. Their large hurtboxes also mean they're easy to grab and start the majority of 's combos + Up-Air's large hitbox means that they can be juggled for quite some time (or just get free percent from an Up-Spec). Exploitable/predictable aerial recoveries also make it very easier to spike with Down-Air/Down-Spec & gimp.

https://streamable.com/8d8po

Getsuga can be SDI'd out pretty quick, but it is a tricky projectile for their size. Ichigo's aerials kill later than v0.9b which hurts his ability to capitalize on combos, but his improved speed and frame data makes up for this. What really hurts him, though, is his own weight. He's a combo-weight/semi-fastfaller with a pretty okay recovery himself, so if either Bowser or DK land a grab, it can be game over just as easily.

That's fair enough. From personal experience though, I haven't found myself powerless against a Bowser or DK since playing online in Beta, I feel like 's increased run and air speed + F-Air makes him less susceptible to being combo food.

I'd put it 55-45 Ichigo-DK and 60-40 Ichigo-Bowser. The main reason is DK has more versatile grab and edge guard options plus a little better movement when recovering to avoid a gimp/spike. Plus, dem arms can challenge Ichigo on the ground better than Bowser can.

Who beats ? Like seriously I have so much trouble against him and I can't really tell

Strong edge-guarders, characters with strong neutrals, and characters that can get past his big arms. Just as he can go 0-60 off one grab, the same can be done to him.

I have a preference for Sheik, Bomberman, Luigi, and Samus against him for various reasons. Sheik in particular because I'm most seasoned with her in that MU, but also because her combos work from 0-100 on him and she can edge guard him really well with Bouncing Fish and needles.

A bunch of characters actually. Most notably Pac-Man, Link, Fox, and a few more characters.

Goku, Isaac, BM, Zelda, Tails, Fox (maybe), Link, Bandanna, Lloyd for certain.

A lot of chars go even but therre are very few chars that DK just stomps out that can't be dealt with. He's super heavy and combo food.

Also speaking of that here's an updated MU list (imo of course)

Bomberman and Sheik definitely don't lose to DK, mainly due to stage control/edgeguard and sheer speed/frame data, respectively.

PAC-MAN IS NOT EVEN WITH DK. GALAGA SHIP Z-DROP TECH DESTROYS DK.

I know this is your opinion, but could you explain to me how (a very light character who can be killed earlier, maybe even more earlier to up air?) beats DK and loses to ? cause I don't think that's true.

too? again, I know this is your opinion, but I just wanna know explanations to some of these.

Not trying to sound bais but I don't understand the list tbh

Edit: I'm hearing edge guards really well, and not sure how he does against , but I may secondary him

Specifics to each char

Bandanna- till recently I thought it was DK's worst matchup. I think he still does alright simply because he has the range, or better described disjoint to keep DK out. Yes he dies early but even with his weaknesses his kit allows him to keep DK out, not to mention he still technically can meet the kill DK early criteria because of sweetspotted uair and his edgeguarding isn't too bad

MK - see above, great combo/edgeguarding game but given the changes from the older version, to well now most of his kill options are very telegraphed and are hard to land w/o bad DI from DK or a good read.

Shiek - yes combo game is fantastic on DK, however besides edgeguards and uthrow uair (which DK can get out of/DI at kill percents AND eventually it stops working), doesn't kill very well.

Pika - good combo, best edgeguarding game vs. DK and usmash is very powerful. Not too sure on the matchup but even w. QA being easyish to edgeguard the number of angles also makes it difficult- would say edgeguarding Pika is easy if you can't mixup QA, near impossible if you can.

Samus- have not fought a good one, but if I had to guess she absolutely would decimate DK. Again only hearsay but her range/tools actually make it very difficult for DK to get in.



Chill, just my opinion. Also given how you can shift the galaga's after you do the glitch, there is still huge possibility of them not being a nusiance outside of edgeguards. Furthermore outside of hydrant/item play DK's neutral is overlal just a tiny bit better than Pac's. Like it's hard to get in if you let pac get setup BUT pac isn't quite as hard as some chars who DK loses to.


Already explained Shiek.

Bomberman - yes bombs good, yes combo game good, big thing is that outside of those DK actually just outranges bomber/and at the least the tilts/bair when spaced well will keep him out easily. Bomberman is similar to Pac in that if the bombs get setup and you get your wall up it gets hard but unlike chars in the even or losing matchups categories, those walls are easier to smash or get around.

* Long explanation of method below*

So for people confused/concerned about how i determine those matchups, there are a few things outside of kit, build, etc. that I evaluated besides what my experience was w. those matchups. This is kinda important generically for looking at it.

Overall I look at 4 things.

1. combo game on DK
2. defensive/walling options on DK
3. kill power
4. DK's options against them.

Overall the chars in +1 have some of these traits but the others are lacking. I will grant that I think all of DK's +1's and -1's can be lumped together in a big old pile of that they can shift at ANY point. But the big thing is that most of DK's MU's are volatile, even the ones that are +2's or -2's or worse. But either way those characters either do 2 of the things really well and the others incredibly poorly, or the neutral/other issues are so even that it's a matter of execution. If it helps, once i get more data i'm sure that MK/Shiek prob drop to even.

However, Bomber, Shiek, MK and Falco to some extent all are +1 because while their combo games are good, the other factors are even to the point that i think DK has some slight edge. Both sides can 0-death each other but between DK's kill power, his ability to wall them out, or their general difficulties in killing makes the matchup hard.

Bomber loses because even though he has the best walling capabilities of the group he is the hardest punished, the worst recovery including falco, and overall his comboes do not kill/lead to DK kills as guarenteed as the others- in fact outside of bombs his edgeguarding game is not particuarly great vs. Kong.

Shiek - see the smash 4 matchup. Shiek will easily get DK from 0-100 easily in one combo, no disputing there, problem is if she does not kill him w. a bouncing fish/fair or some edgeguard, DK isn't dying till late. her smashes are mediocre in power and terrible in terms of punishment, and outside of the DK making errors she can't kill easily.

Meanwhile, DK needs 3 winning interactions to kill, 2 to get Shiek around/above 90, 1 to get some kill confirm between grab to usmash, bair offstage, bthrow, etc. It's less pronounced than Smash 4 but simiarily DK's recovery is overall better than in that game so even that goal makes it difficult.

Falco - They both eat each other. Big differrence is that Falco is slightly worse than DK at covering his recovery especially when he goes high. Also Falco should never get back on stage unless it's via the ledge when being edgeguarded. Hardest part for DK is lasers but otherwise MU isn't too bad.

All of the losing matchups are via that their tools in one of those areas are so strong that it makes DK struggle to get in- he could have a lot of ease punishing them but otherwise it's incredibly difficult to do so whether it's because their combo game is super good, their neutral is equipped to keep DK out or otherwise their tools just overwhelm him. This problem gets worse as the matchup is worse, notably Isaac, Goku have tools to the level where DK's options are just outclassed/you're forced to do certain playstyles.

But again, just my opinion.

I think you say this primarily as someone who plays DK against these characters, not the other way around. As someone who is quite devoted to both Sheik and Bomberman, I think your analysis is off.

For Sheik, you should never be using Fsmash anyways, and Up-smash is primarily for early/mid percent combo strings off up-throw or catching techs/ledge jumps. Down smash is the finisher for a good read near ledge, but primarily Sheik abuses DK's linear recovery and inability to deal with Bouncing Fish/Needles/Dair/Uair. Frankly, if you're not closing stocks with edgeguards as Sheik, you're not playing correctly, and DK is not hard to edge guard with her kit.

For Bomberman, the hit boxes on his bombs becomes a big skew in this MU; it's a hit box DK cannot mitigate that adds free stage control and edge guard opportunities. Plus, Bomberman has incredible combo/grab game against DK with D-smash killing considerably early near ledge. Combined with inherently high speed and aerial control plus really solid aerial options all the way around makes for a winning MU for Bomberman. I actually don't think his recovery is that bad nor that exploitable. It's got great height for the delay with a solid hitbox and our increased aerial mobility helps horizontal recoveries. Yes, his edge guard outside of bombs is okay, but, frankly, if you're not guarding with level 2/3 bombs you're being an idiot with the character's central tool for his kit. Bomb kick, and dropping/tossing up bombs make it impossible for DK to get to ledge because you can cover everywhere with bombs.

How do you get Beta characters in Tier list maker?