Waft really makes zero sense the way it is. You have a character who is can air-camp time away. Now that same character has a move that guarantees a KO at 0% every 1:45 minutes. With the average matche being 3-4 minutes, Wario is pretty much guaranteed 2 stocks every match. And the longer a match goes on for, the more KO's Wario is guaranteed. It honestly doesn't take much thought to use and isn't really that fun. The move should charge every 45 seconds and you use the option of using it as an extra recovery move or just a good, reasonable KO move.

And Shoulder-Bash could definitely work in a better way as it also encourages defensive-play and stalling.

Damn I agree with all of that!, also it frustates me that Rest is soo damn bad considering it kills at really high percents and leaves you so vulnerable (but that's for another thread).

To stay on Wario, I find all of his aerials quite good, but can't really find the use of dair and in fact just avoid it completely when playing. Any tips or something?

GGs ZZ. Damn lag, but GGs. Not sure what happened in that last one.

Anyways, yeah, Waft is a joke as it stands. I know this is Brawl's fault, but any move that continues to passively charge AFTER you've died makes zero sense.

Dair is a good spike (best way of killing a recovering DK). You can also do it to heavier characters several times in a row before they can get out. In fact, I don't think you can find a harder counter in the game than Wario-DK. Wario can butt slam him to KO territory, spike him while he's recovering, land aerials at will. It's a 100-0 matchup.

D-air is most probably "All or nothing" when it comes to offstage. at mid to high percents, you can expect a really good K.O.

Easier said than done however, K.O'ing a recovering DK isn't always as simple, remember that you have to Butt Smash (D-air) his head. If you land on his hands they'll slap you and cancel the attack, and with how much control DK has on his recovery compared to Wario's Butt Smash, you can't expect Butt Smash to work every time. But DK is probably the easiest recovery to practice Butt Smash on so yeah.

I disagree on 100-0 MU. I mean seriously, that literally means DK can't even get in the first attack. DK has almost all his tilt attacks, namely S-tilt or U-tilt that can beat out Wario's Aerial attacks if spaced well. U-tilt Beats Butt Smash, DK's S-tilt beats Wario's SH F-air AND N-air (So can a reverse U-tilt) Wario should be THE "Jumpman" because most of his attacks are in the air. His ground attacks can only combo for a certain amount of time before he has to take it to the air. Yes he has D-tilt, U-tilt and his grab, but they are a very concentrated range, meaning that it is more likely for Wario to use D-tilt or a grab, if you're right next to him.
DK has a bigger range than Wario as well, and with Wario still having a pitiful grab range (though slightly boosted because of his size increase) DK still has a better ranged grab.

To extend on above that the DK v Wario MU is not 100-0 in Wario's favour Let's not forget that both Wario and DK can kill at Low percents (a big fart, and a big punch), the fact that Wario can not MANUALLY charge his fart and DK can manually charge up his punch makes DK more deadly ALSO remembering that both can be shielded. DK can mostly out space Wario to avoid Nasty combos but Wario has a fun time against DK if he starts a combo. DK is really good at racking up percentage with only a few hits, while Wario has to practically earn the "All Aerial" award just to get enough damage to K.O. Adding to that, Wario doesn't have many Reliable K.O moves. With N-air being shut down by Spinning Kong, it can't be used as a sturdy K.O move, probably D-air would be your best hope or trying to K.O DK into the sky with U-air or U-spec (The latter if DK is at a much higher percent and closer to the death boundary.) Don't forget DK's Super armour Punch.

Oh okay lets say you do get caught up in The Butt storm, oh what can i do? At low Percent, DI to an edge(Cause your DK, at below 40% you can survive an off stage D-air. Your super armour beats out his butt, and you have more control as DK), at Mid to high, Tech it, by the third time being hit you should be able to get the feel of the pattern and should tech as you're butt smashed, from there, it's just a matter of escaping and outsmarting.

Just an estimate if i'd really have to say, it's most likely a 55-45 in DK's favour.


Nuclear Farts may be OHKO in some cases, but Wario has to come to you to do it, he can't throw a Fart at you, you have to be there to smell it. I think it's common sense that if someone comes raging towards you and it's been 105 seconds (1 minute and 45 seconds) you know he's going to fart, just like that smiling guy who you know he's going to do something terrible, that's Wario, so if he comes in with the intention of Farting and nothing else, you can litterally shield and kaboom you're alive! He HAS to combo it otherwise it wont work. You're only concern with the Nuke Farts is when you're at mid Percent (Probably 40%) and above because that's when it can kill from anywhere in the stage. At 0% Wario has to Fart on you at the very edge of the stage to OHKO you.

Shoulder bash Gains power the more it travels. i don't know if you've already found it out, but most aerial attacks beat it out. (Mostly mid ranged B-air's) It can even be grabbed out of. when shielded, it leaves Wario wide open (Except for aerial Should bashes) and quite litterally, almost any ground attack, stops Shoulder bash, whether grounded or aerial. A simple JAB can stop the attack. The only time you should ever be concerned about Shoulder Bash is when you're offstage, and Wario's using the move and trying to jump into you.

Now more towards aerial combat against Shoulder bash. every character has a move where a part of them sticks out to attack, most likely B-airs or F-airs or any attack with range, use those to beat out Wario's Should bash when you're in the air (E.G Any Marth aerial that isn't U-air, Kirby's B-air, Samus' N-air, B-air, Chibi Robo's F-air and B-air the list goes on.)
Contrary to what you would think, Projectiles wouldn't work as well as you'd think, (except for Samus' Charge shot/N-spec and Link's bombs) because he can ram through them well, it's not like characters don't have anything to go for after they use their projectiles! Megaman is Projectile reliant and the Buster is beaten out (Until fully charged) but Megaman has keep away moves that keep him safe from attack like Shoulder bash.

And Now. Attacking Wario's Shoulder bash from behind this means that he is charging AWAY from you and you have to chase him, well, huzzah, you must of came at him with an attack like Peaches U-air or something similar if you got hit. Correct me if i'm wrong unless if you're soo close he could actually hit you, then your ground attack will hit Wario and not you. As for aerials it's pretty much the same deal only don't use something that wouldn't be appropriate like Megaman's U-air when he's not even above you.



If Wario seems OP to people, i'd suggest to rethink that, I know MK in brawl had no Projectiles and was "Top Tier" But this is a completely different game, in this demo, it's more of a balanced game than what it used to be, if you don't have a projectile then most likely you can fight your way without the need of one and beat out the projectiles, if you have a good array of projectiles, the you'll most likely have to aim them specifically or to have a ground game where you must know where to strike before making a hit. Wario does not have any remarkable things that make him untouchable nor does he have supreme MU's to make him better than the rest of the cast.

So much rage, let me clarify some things…

Waft IS OP, I agree :
Now I personally just go in for the fight, but realistically an experienced Wario could play extremely campy with his exceptional air movement, wait 90 seconds, and pretty much 4/3-stock the best player of any class (challenge me if you want to test this theory). Not even playing campy as hell it is already quite absurd. I am not going to name anyone but the other day I got the first kill, farted, then bum rushed my opponent off the edge into a bite suicide and it was a 3-1 stock game, 0%. This opponent is considered one of the best players on this forum.

Other than waft, Wario is NOT OP :

Meh, I still haven’t seen much use for his tilts/1-2 punch. Yes, I use them occasionally but they are used maybe once a match (and I almost never utilt which used to be amazzzing). People may use them more frequently but I do not believe they are utilizing Wario correctly (i.e. you will have more success working your opponent off the edge quickly, where he is not comfortable, and building combos from there). His uair is incredibly challenging to time since its release is so delayed. His usmash is also difficult to utilize.

Dash/Recovery

Yes, his air mobility is great, but his dash is not slow, it’s fairly quick and it allows a heavy character like Wario to be deceptively swift. Nevertheless, the range on it is pretty short so I do not believe it is OP.
And amazing recovery? Are you talking about his uspec or recovery from getting up from an attack. Pardon me for my ignorance, I am a long time smasher but I rather pick up the sticks than chat about it. Talking about the speed it takes for him to get moving after being attacked, it might possibly be one of the worst recoveries in the game. If a great player gets an attack off he could easily make it a 0-80% combo against Wario. It is almost impossible to jump out of some of ichigos, tails, megamans(fair, dthrow, sticky shot while I am laying down, next move), or many other player combos who know their character well.

Shoulder bash :
HOLD THE F—kin phone on this one. This move is so not OP and yall need to play more Warios to get used to it. Shoulderbash in 8bdemo was clearly OP, but this is one of the most telegraphed and most easily punishable moves in the game. You can shield grab it, have plenty of time to jump away from it (considering a good Wario does not risk using it near a ledge or up close to you), and it only does serious damage in the last few frames. The fact that it is so predictable makes it easy to counter. The only really solid chance to make it connect, other than my opponents screw up, is to land the last few frames near the ledge of a recovering opponent who does not go for the ledge grab...Or to jump up into a mid air opponent (especially peach). Controversially, I would like a little buff to it. On any map with ledges it is the only move to approach someone camping under one. Ledges negate his air approach and if you have a projectile that Wario's shoulderbash does not penetrate (like demon fang and many others), than you can sit under that ledge all day. Of course you would be sitting there while a Waft is charging, but I already have agreed that Waft is OP.

D-air

Nooo. Wario is probably the only character in the game who does not have a spike he can recover from. It is suicidal using against most characters and does not pierce the uspec of many (DK it randomly works sometimes, Ichigo it doesn’t work; sheik, samus, metaknight, Kirby, Pikachu, lloyd, well pretty much everyone except link/ness/other warios it is sooo hard to time).

Onto DK vs Wario

I beat some of the best DKS probably 65-35 on open maps but I have to play my heart out. I lose to the best DKS 35-65 on any map with a ledge (which prevent my approach through the air and DK can punch away at my shoulderbash). Not a 100-0 match up at all. It is one of my favorite match ups because of how hard it makes me play. I do not think there is another character I have to play as flawless against.

Conclusion:
Waft is OP, nothing else is really. In fact, I would like to see a increase in recovering from being hit or more KO potential if Waft were to be nerfed. Getting stuck in long combos as wario is roughhh. Of course he can dish out some nasty combos of his own with the low knock back/versatility of his moveset, but he has weak KO power. As previously mentioned in this thread, it takes getting most opponents up to 160-190+ to dash them off the map. If you opt out of a dash kill then Nair is great off map and fsmash can be decent at 150%, but most characters have at least one legit KO moves against opponents in the 90% range.

Yellokirbyguy, excellent points. The only counters I have are:
105 seconds (1 minute and 45 seconds)
Its more like 90 seconds (verified in solo and online).
At 0% Wario has to Fart on you at the very edge of the stage to OHKO you
On small maps it CAN ko at 0% (Yoshi's Story, Warioware, etc.)

Waft definitely needs a nerf. I like your idea the most.

Oh, i was going towards something similar to Brawls time for the waft, thanks for the correction.

But i do agree with the small stage part, you can still survive a Nuke fart at 0% if you're like, right in the middle of the stage and DI upwards (I tested this With Jigglypuff, if she/he can survive it, anyone can in the same situation). Realistically though, it's highly unlikely that someone ever going to be conveniently placed right there and still have 0% and get hit by the Nuke Fart. So as i said before, i agree with the small stage part.


As a person who forgets to use waft on occasions, If the Nuke Fart had to get a nerf, i'd probably make it a killing move that can easily K.O at around 85% though i'm not the best at determining how well a nerf should look like.

I think that could work, may be a lil too drastic but not sure. Maybe if you also lost some of the charge when you get KO'd? (pls make Wario flash yellow too when full charge!)

I'm starting to get the feel that dash attack causes too much knockback for a semi spike. Sure it's kinda shortranged, but when you're on the ground next to the ledge, you most likely won't be coming back.

I guess that's a +1 for Wario reguarding the Fox vs Wario MU.

Yeah it depends on which character you are though. Fox definitely gets knocked too far, most others can recover still. As always, those were some good games earlier.

Uh, yeah. They were. I think I probably coulda done better though.

Is there a good strategy for fighting Ichigo? Wario is clearly outranged, and his extremely slow speed makes it difficult for him to land punishes. His saving grace in the matchup is Chomp I believe, as I can bring Ichigo to the ground, and combo into various moves. The easiest was to get a Chomp is punish a side-special from Ichigo, but what if Ichigo doesn't use side-special? What can Wario do then?

Waft takes longer to charge and it's knockback no longer allows for OHKOs on Yoshi's story. I'd say this is the most balanced version of Wario to date.

Yeah, I agree.