As far as I know that's the players fault. Actually no character should be killed by that unless they were being reckless.

Yes, obviously it's perfectly fine to require 100% on-point DI all the time or die at 10%.

Yeah, who seriously dies to that?

Also be glad you get a 50/50 instead of a smaller mix up.

how the f*** do you get hit by dthrow fair fair at any percent

you have to do DI purposely s*** to get hit by that

Thank you Dope.

Also who even dies at that, unless they have their jump taken away?

None of the light characters( , , , , ) die from that, hell Fox falls to the ground. If he didn't D.I., Sheik would get a free tipper up smash. The former four don't even need to worry because they can recover back in no time.

Edit:
So I tested this so called death combo out.

I used it on , a medium-heavy high faller, on , a medium-light average faller, and finally on , a medium average faller.

So I did the test and the results are that this combo is not even guaranteed.

With the Link and ZSS player, I saw they didn't hold D.I. out after D.I.ing down throw at 10%. However, they didn't need to because they ended up getting close to the floor which gave me time for only one fair because I would have to short hop fair, which would then lead me to landing. They hardly went anywhere so they would end up hitting the floor.

I didn't get the down throw to fair to fair until around 20 - 30%, to which they survived and were able to come back, which nullifies this combo as the death combo that Code is saying it is. After the combo is finished, it doesn't work anymore unless the opponent purposely D.I.s in or they die.

The Mario player on the other hand kept changing his D.I. from time to time, which I liked. When the opportunity came to get the combo, it appeared he kept D.I.ing out and up, which would then force me to jump to get another hit.

Another problem is after performing down throw is dashing toward the opponent which isn't always easy after using down throw. Then we have fair, which is good at high percentages, but not so much at low percentages unless you are trying to steal someone's jump. I counted twice that the opponent would be sent behind me instead of in front which is another problem for this combo.

So yeah, this combo isn't good or worth anyone's time.

Also Code, Jiggs doesn't even die to Sheik's fair at 40% unless you are really off stage and are having bad D.I.

is it still bad that i still think the fair nerf was unnecessary

I have to agree that if it is around Brawl or Smash 4 power, then its terrible. If its still a little stronger then Melee, then its good, hell I would even take Melee power.

praying chain gets replaced with bouncing fish or smoke grenade

If it can happen to a CPU, it CAN happen to you:



I agree that Sheik fair doesn't need Smash 4 loss of power, but making it more like a high-mid-percentage kill move instead of instant offstage move would be really useful. Ultimately, you know it's too good when I'm tempted to say it's the only reason Sheik wins certain matchups. Fighting Megaman? Fair -> offstage -> death. Fighting Ness? Fair -> offstage -> death. It's crazy good at forcing edgeguards, and it can kill crazy early too with bad DI. Fox bair or slightly better would be fine.

Ummm they are D.I.ing up and a little out, but not holding out.

So I will take this with a grain of salt. Actually, this happens to most CPUs and even Sandbag, so I wouldn't consider that working on a human unless they D.I. in.

Yes, but of course people will DI in every so often because it's such a scary move. DI'ing out or down at even 40% can set you up for a deadly edgeguard or simply kill you. DI'ing out often lets Sheik link the combo with a jump in between, and depending on character and percent DI'ing down won't save you either. Obviously it's mostly avoidable, but it's still an amazing tool to have.

You are giving this not guaranteed combo to much credit.

Anyway, I hope up throw stays the same.

From what I saw of the stream, up air looked stronger.

Yeah, I noticed that too, including the better visuals to it Good that Sheik got it a lil' better in vertical kb.

So I wanted to take a little detour from Beta speculation to talk about a highly underrated part of v0.9b Sheik that needed a little bit of lab work and clarification: bthrow ledge gimps.

Bthrow is pretty good in general against lots of characters with bad recoveries. Against most characters, Sheik back throws them off the ledge, and then either hard-reads a specific option, stays onstage, or grabs the ledge, hoping to react to the recovery. This works fine against characters like Naruto with lackluster recoveries, but it's not as good as guaranteed damage against many characters because it takes so much guesswork to land a kill.

However, on a few characters, there are reliable or semi-reliable ways to either guarantee a gimp or make the odds in your favor. I'll go through some of them, as well as other common characters you might try it on.

Fox, DK, Falcon (0%): Even with full DI out, what you should do is run off, immediately use nair, and aim straight for him. If he jumps into it, he's dead, so just grab ledge. If he makes it back by some miracle, just repeat it.

The problem is that there's not much they can do to avoid this. If he waits too long or jumps backwards at the wrong time, it's either that he has 1 option to get back (very formulaic, you can repeat the throw or fair or whatever), or he can't (EZPZ).

The only little exception to this is Falcon, who can get hit by nair early and grab ledge before you can do anything. With a little percent, it doesn't matter (so jumping needles into grab would be excellent), but that means you should probably just grab ledge against Falcon most of the time, or if you go down fair instead.


Fox, DK, Falcon, (>40%): Now they avoid falling nair, so you have two options: jump, or no jump. Pick one and cover it, or just stay at ledge and wait for them.


Marth: Because of his lackluster horizontal recovery, I find that Marths scare pretty easily, so if you're playing someone who knows what's coming, just wait for them to panic. I've seen a LOT of mashed up-B's when they get thrown, so just grab ledge and punish accordingly on landing.

Bomberman: The nair does cover everything at low %'s, but because of Bomberman's insane vertical recovery (and the dip before it), he doesn't really care. So this is a 50-50: either you fair him and grab ledge to get the kill, or you feign doing that, but actually just fall and then jump back to ledge and roll to get the kill if they waited too long, or barring that just reset the situation. If you're serious about this edgeguard, you might want to get good at up-B stalling to regain your invincibility to make sure you're invincible for the up-B's hitboxes.

Wario, Link, Goku: These guys can recover faster than you can get back to edgeguard when hit by nair, and they can avoid it with proper DI and jumping away from the stage, although Wario might not be able to easily get back once he does jump. If you go for a quick kill, either wait on ledge to see what they do, or go for a fair to read a jump.

Some other characters, including some of the above at some percents: Many characters have a 50-50 scenario: either they jump back (allowing themselves to die to rising nair or fair, but evading dropping nair and simple grab edge), direct recovery (character-specific, beaten by faking an aerial and DJing to ledge but beating nair most of the time), or wait out the nair's hitbox (not many characters can pull it off, although it usually ends very well for them and very bad for you, because you get edgeguarded). Marth is an excellent example of this type, at 20-30%.

50-50 doesn't sound as good as guaranteed damage from her other excellent throws, but it's better than you think most of the time. Panic options and out-of-hitstun options are usually the most sloppy out of all the set-option situations in this game (teching, recovery, OoS). Most people aren't very good at mixing it up, especially when they aren't expecting it, so with a solid read on your opponent this is not 50-50 but more 80-20 of ending the stock.

In conclusion, Sheik's bthrow allows you to bypass Sheik's intricate onstage punish game in favor of a much more formulaic situation, one in which you usually have to make a very simple and usually doable read. Against a few characters, you don't have to make a read, so you should definitely remember that against those characters this should be your main option if you grab with your back to the ledge.

I was about to say you were just re hashing stuff that we already know and you did, but added specific characters. I am impressed. Although, you saying this is an underrated is a overstatement when most Sheik's, low to high, use this tactic.

Although, you complaining about down throw to fair to fair, which isn't a real combo, but have no problem with the back throw tactic un nerves me a bit.

Well I am one of a few that knows how to truly escape this tactic just mainly waits it out while others try to hit Sheik first by fast fall to rising aerial or fade back to aerial.

With DK, he has no problem getting hit by this since he can armor through it and since he has no problem getting back, I have just don't use it on him.

Falcon's and Marth's will now try to hit Sheik or recover under her which is nice.

BBM I wouldn't really use it against due to his weird hitboxes on Jetpack since at times he can be hit or other times, it becomes a problem.

I don't use back throw on Goku much unless they are being reckless due to his up b's speed and hitbox.

I hardly use Sheik for Wario so I have no comment.

As I use Naruto, I try to bait our certain attacks first or have a Rasenshuriken with me at all times to make sure I can recover back.

Link, you have to time it really good to knock him out of Spin attack.