I'm sorry, I thought Charge Shot had transcendent priority. I've never cancelled it out, but I guess it's possible. The point still stands that when Samus fires a Charge Shot at you most characters really have no choice but to use a defensive option or evasion.

How do I fire the green missile?

Samus has 2 different types of missiles to fire, use side special to fire a regular rocket and use side specials as a Smash Attack to fire a non homing super missile.

THANKS A MILLION

I feel like, dropping a character at this advancement of the metagame because "exploting it is a complete waste of time" is stupid. Right now, every character can win tournaments. Kyoz almost won with Chibi Robo and that just proved it.

DarkErmac though, your decision of dropping Samus is probably the right one at this point, if you only see her weaknesses and not her strongnesses now considering the time you played her, this character probably doesn't fit your playstyle at all

Id say that Kyoz almost won with Chibi only because hes just that good. Not because Chibi is viable (which he isnt). To be honest, I understand DE. Samus in this game just makes me sad for some reason. The only things she has right now are Zair, FTilt and her Beam Glitches. Id actually be happy if we got Brawl Samus at this point. No offense to the devs, but you dont have to copy Sakurai screwing over Samus.

I was going to make a witty remark about it being the closest approximation to screwing Samus, but I held off on it.

It seems Samus along with Link are the only characters no Smash game has managed to make good. It's sad, really.

Those 3? No screw attack, down smash and down tilt?

Dude, just no.

@CSWooly
Melee Samus was really good.

Link is thought to be good in Smash 4, but he just needs a few more buffs to help him out.

Chibi is definitely viable.

But moving on, Samus is a weird character kinda like Brawl Wario: she doesn't have the tools to play like the rest of the cast does, but when played in her own way she can be good. Pivot ftilt and pivot grab are both amazing at beating approaches, dtilt is an amazing kill move at high percents and a great spacing tool, dsmash can get really early kills and wrecks fast-fallers, Bombs are great at evading approaches and punishing, Charge Shot provides a solid kill option (if you elect to use the double Charge Shot glitch) or a Waft-like free last stock (if you use the projectile stacking glitch), as well as forcing the opponent to approach (and serving as a substitute for Super Missile against characters that can easily out-prioritize it like Fox), Super Missile is a great way to stuff approaches against characters with poor priority and/or poor aerial mobility, although you have to use it smartly to avoid being powershielded, Homing Missiles provide a great buffer between you and the opponent that can be used to cover a retreat or approach.

She doesn't have the punishes to really be an offensive character, but against the characters who she can punish she has the devastating combination of a great defensive kit and great punishes. She is the best weight/falling speed class in the game, which some characters have a really tough time working with. She has decent kill moves and OK edgeguarding, and against fast-fallers or characters she can easily edgeguard that is much improved. She does struggle against characters that can punish her hard because it's hard to work with an uneven punish game and against characters that can get past her defensive tools like Marth or Lloyd (although I think these matchups aren't the train wrecks that you might think, because pivot grabs, Charge Shot, well-spaced ftilt, dtilt, utilt, zair, dsmash, nair, and bair all have good range and can get around swords if used well).

Chibi is definitely viable close to a level of Mario. Good mobility, swordsman-like aerial range, and many characters do not have a good answer to edge-guarding against Side-special.

Samus is really just learning to wait and punish optimally. Always keep a Charge-Shot stored and abuse the hell out of bombs for combo-breakers & options coverage. She also still a hard counter to DK and Fox.

Hard counter to Fox?

I'd say Samus/Fox MU is about 60/40.
Samus can body fox with or without projectiles in this game due to Dtilt, and Bair-not to mention SHFFSspec(strong). If fox shines the missile, you can duck it and ready a Dtilt

>.> What?

I would say the MU is in Fox's favor or at least even.

The way I see it, Samus is the opposite of Fox in terms of accelerated falling speed and weight. Samus is a heavy character with being a floaty while Fox is a light character with being a fast faller(the highest accelerated falling speed in the game belongs to him).

So with this being said, Samus is a character that is perfect for Fox's shine combos. Her being a heavy character makes her susceptible to horizontal combos while she is more resistant to vertical combos due to her accelerated falling speed. Also due to her being floaty makes her a prefect match for Fox's vertical kill moves such as up smash and up air.

Due to her being floaty, the lowest level of the 6 accelerated falling speed categories, she is not susceptible to up throw to up air at all. However, she is susceptible to up tilt into up air, or you can get an up smash from a down throw read or just throw out a raw up smash and hope it connects.

So projectiles. Samus kinda wins the amount of projectiles and the diversity of them. However, Fox can reflect them all and can nair or if I remember correctly, up tilt bomb to cancel it out. Also he can just power shield them and doesn't need to use reflector.

Also Fox can camp Samus out or just get up close and personal with her. Samus has problems fighting up and close compared to Fox. You can say she has forward tilt and down smash to rekt Fox, but other then that she really doesn't have anything to completely destroy him. Her only one reliable KO move on Fox is down smash and that's it.

The only part of the MU where Fox truly loses is in the recovery and edge guarding department. As we all know Fox's recovery is easy to gimp and edge guard against if you know what you are doing. However, Samus on the other hand has a tether recovery, can use bomb recovery, can use the momentum from a charge shot, if she has fully stored one, to use it for horizontal recovery and she has the hardest to gimp recovery move in the game with Screw Attack. After playing many Samuses, I can say that Fox has no option to out prioritize that.

From what you guys said about Samus and me fighting Samuses, I can say the MU might slightly be in Fox's favor or even.

I do remember the chain grab Samus has on Fox and everything. However, that's if Samus can get a grab on Fox and we know Fox is one of the most slippery characters in the game with his great ground mobility.

I will change my mind if I get more MU experience from better plays, sorry DE, like Sekanor. I faced his Samus with my fox only once.

@Masky
What? You act like Fox will just be near Samus when he reflects her missile and down tilt does not really bother Fox that much since he is a fast faller so he won't be killed until at least over 110%. Also it won't leave him in enough hitstun for follow ups.

Also Fox can jump out of reflector as soon as possible or he doesn't need to reflect them.

Samus at the very least goes even, but I'd say on flat stages probably near-unwinnable if you use the chaingrab (one bad nair and your stock is gone) effectively (although I've never played against someone who could reliably 0-death, it is certainly doable).

Many of Fox's combos depend on falling speed as well: it's a lot harder to get nair or bair followups on floaties if they DI up, uthrow uair never works, utilt -> uair has a very thin window to kill with, etc. The normal Fox B&B's aren't super high-damage combos, and to do anything beyond 35% from nair -> shine -> bair it becomes fairly hard to combo Samus. If Samus doesn't get sniped with usmash or uthrow -> uair Fox has a really tough time killing her, because the normal safe kill move of bair doesn't actually kill Samus until high percents (and Fox has a tough time edgeguarding Samus).

IIRC Charge Shot beats nair regardless of charge, which is HUGE in the matchup, as uncharged Charge Shot essentially takes away nearly all of Fox's approach options, especially when you position yourself so that you can follow up on using Shine to reflect it. Dash-back pivot grab also beats a ton of approach options, and on flat stages this leads to death if it connects with essentially no risk if it misses (as long as you don't actually pivot so the dash grab comes out). Super Missiles and Homing Missiles are not good in the MU, but you don't need them. (They do have utility in edgeguarding, but that's about it.) Samus can combo Fox pretty well, and again if she ever combos into grab in the right situation it's all over. Utilt, dtilt, fair, usmash, uair, dair, Bomb, etc., all combo. Dtilt is an amazing counter to dash-in anything by Fox because of its disjoint. Zair is a good stuffing tool but actually not as good IMHO as her other options for stopping approaches.

Offstage, as you said, Fox really has no good way of challenging Screw Attack if you don't recover stupidly high, and certainly can't if you mix it up with tethers and bombs. However, Samus can edgeguard Fox with missiles (which wreck Firefox), a good meteor which can be comboed into from Bomb, fairly long-ranged aerials and enough air mobility to interrupt recoveries, and dsmash to cover high recoveries once Fox lands.

Dsmash is amazing in the MU because it sends Fox in a vicious angle that sets up for EZ edgeguards at really low percentages. It's not easy to land, but if you can it's amazing. Bair also has a pretty good angle and can kill early offstage, but this is Samus's main weakness in that on big stages as long as Fox doesn't get hit offstage early he can live really long, and eventually you're going to get hit with uair and/or usmash and die early.

I think you're REALLY underestimating the chaingrab's power. Especially in tournament settings, flat stages are nearly auto-win because it's like fighting Ice Climbers where Nana never dies with an amazing defensive kit. The only stage where it isn't a threat is Smashville: on nearly every other stage there is some form of setup into a guaranteed 0-death. (On stages like YS, you can get good grabs in the middle of the stage, on the edge, or on top of platforms and Fox dies.) It's an excellent tech-chase tool, and especially with how often Fox has to tech you're almost certain to get at least one good grab a game on stages that allow it. Fox has amazing mobility, sure, but in order to actually approach Samus at any point during the match you need to risk losing your stock, especially because Samus can pick and choose her battles so that you don't approach her below platforms. If you ever become even the slightest bit predictable, ever go for a greedy usmash and miss, ever hold your shield too much, ever tech predictably, you lose a stock, set up for a lost stock (e.g., on Battlefield you can chaingrab under a platform for a little bit and then it becomes a tech-chase situation on the higher platform, where if you manage to get a second grab you get the stock), or in the best-case scenario (Smashville), get comboed and chaingrabbed for as long as the platform will let you.

Why are caping certain words? Code you are scaring me. Don't do it again.

I already talked about the accelerated falling speed combo options. Also that's for a majority of the characters, not just Fox.

I guess I should have mentioned he can't nair through Charge Shot, but I didn't think someone would need to explain that.

I already talked about how Fox get's rekted off stage.

Also when I asked Chaunch to play Samus against my Fox to get a better understanding of the MU. Samus can Zair immediately out of air dodging, I was like WTF? Even when I used back air on him when he air dodged, the back air like we all know has a lasting hitbox, but the zair beat it some how. I was like WTF.