Endlag refers to the frames of a move after the hitbox is gone, but the move itself is still going on. Landlag is the lag you incur when you land during an aerial. Some moves have autocancel frames, which in 9b means you go to straight to your character's Idle stance and suffer no landlag other than one frame where you have to be in Idle. I'm 100% sure that Peach has no autocancel timing window of this kind, and I'm fairly sure (but not totally sure) that you always suffer the full landlag no matter when you land during Peach's fair. The best use of float-canceling an aerial is to skip the endlag of the move, effectivel replacing it with that move's landlag.

I'm fairly certain that every aerial in the game has autocancel frames, but when they were applied a few demos ago there was no universally agreed-upon degree of generosity with which to dispense them. As a result, they're a little bit all over the place.

Ah I see, thanks for the explanation. By the landing lag, you're saying that eg. Peach's bair's landing lag in which you use after a release from FC is so that she will not encounter the frames of ending lag and therefore you can end bair early?


Oh so uh.. is it right to assume there is for Peach's fair? Since I do remember that I could do it a few times and I could see the difference where Peach could follow up immediately. But I maybe wrong so... I hope someone out there proves it.

I'll use bair for an example. Peach's bair has 11 frames of endlag (and the hitbox stays out for 7 frames), so if you were to just float->bair->bair, you would have to wait for up to 17 frames after hitlag before you can hit them with the second bair (assuming you hit with the first active frame, there is still 6 + 11 frames left in the move), then the next bair comes out 4 frames afterwards on frame 21.

If you did float->bair->land->float->bair, and suppose you landed one or two frames after hitting the move (to account for her low fall speed after canceling the float), then she spends 4 frame in landlag, 3 frames in jumpsquat, then she needs to float for one frame, then bair comes out and hits on the 4th frame after. Taken together, this second method has the second bair come out on ~frame 14. 14 < 21, so FC'ing aerials to skip endlag is quite effective.

@Savy looking over my notes, Peach has "true" autocanceling (how AC'ing works in the main games), where there is a part of her fair where if she lands she just has standard landing lag (like when landing an empty hop), which is 4 frames as opposed to the move's normal landing lag of 10.

Right, that makes sense. If I recall correctly, autocancels are coded in such a way that each one is a separate landing animation triggered if the character lands during specific frames. They don't actually go into the real soft landing animation, which explains more of the inconsistencies. I can't guarantee that 100%, but I'm fairly certain that that is how it works.

Experiment with auto-cancelled f-air
Since fair's autocancel has been proven, I went to test lab with Del(a player) to see if fair > dsmash on shield works like in melee. We tried on different percents, he was using MK and he'd shield grab me every time I failed to land a dsmash after an auto-cancelled fair and sadly, it doesn't work. Either we shouldn't be using MK since he's floaty and therefore more shield pushback at higher percents, or because of the shieldstun in low percents which doesn't last long enough for me to dsmash.

Options after an auto-cancelled f-air
So Del gave me an idea to grab or dash attack instead. I tried grabbed after an autocancelled fair and yes, it worked. Take note that this is on shield so obviously grab would be the idea rather than dash attack as well as how he couldn't grab me first. Dash attack may work on sidestepping although I'm not sure and dtilt may work on jumping OOS.

Extra Hypothesis
It may be possible to break shield with an auto-cancelled fair > saturn/turnip(probably a rare one) throw > ftilt although I'm not entirely sure as stated so. It may also be possible to break if the shield is small after a couple of shield pressure before your f-air > whatever you want to do.

Other things you can do with auto-cancelled fair

Spaced auto-cancelled f-air on the opponent's shield > opponent whiffs grab but unable to grab due to spacing > punished. It shouldn't be noted that it should work consistently in all percents for mid-weight to heavy-weight characters.

But for light-weight characters mostly it'd be low to mid percents and ending off there. They'd have high push-back on their shields at high percents and therefore even if they did whiff grab you may not be able to punish since they'd be too far away(although it may still be possible). This punishes should work on tether/long-ranged grabs(Link's, Samus's, ZSS's, Chibi Robo) as long as you float away/dash away/jump/sidestep quickly, although I've yet to experiment if you have enough time to get away from said grabs.

Just remember that this should only work if opponent falls for your safe-on-shield-attack by whiffing grab. If your opponent delays his grab expecting thing you to punish(like muscle memory or habit) you'll be the one in trouble of course.

Possible follow-ups/punishes:
Ground Options-
D-Tilt
D-Smash
Dash-Attack
Dash-Grab

Float-Cancel(Right above ground height) Options-
N-air
D-air(Remember to pull it out only when you're near the opponent, d-air slows you down when using it)
B-air(Turning around or using the reverse hitbox of B-air)

Float-Cancel(Around head height) Options-
D-air(Remember to pull it out only when you're near the opponent, d-air slows your movement when using it.)
N-air(as in hitting the opponent just right above while still floating, which is possible if you set the proper height)
B-air (read the note of n-air*, but it's rather unwise to use B-air this way, just listing out a possibility)
Falling B-air

Short-Hop Options-
N-air
B-air

Full-Hop Options(Note that you can apply JCFF to this for slightly faster falling)-
Falling N-air
Falling B-air

The last thing you should really remember is that if you can't apply auto-cancelled f-air consistently as part of your playstyle due to how it's hard to auto-cancel, my advice is to slowly get used to it through training mode or at least attempting to do it when you know your opponent is going to bring out a shield to prevent f-air from hitting them. So even if you didn't managed to auto-cancel but space your f-air, at least you're safe, but you won't be able to punish due to f-air's landing lag.

Found out something nice is that, if you auto-cancel f-air as well as hitting the opponent with it, you can follow up with a grab immediately.

tfw saturn doesn't break shields in this current version.

Its not supposed to break it in one throw, but it does break shields if you throw it twice in a row at a shield.

plz buff mr.saturn to be like smash 4 kthnx

yespls

Me and Del did a bit of a test, since all shields are of same size, it's safe to assume Mr. Saturn can break the shield in 3 hits, not counting shield pokes or any other factors. therefore it's not 2 hits Mr. Sorab

Additional notes:
Using both of Peach's jabs (jab1 > jab2) equals to around 1 Mr. Saturn's shield damage. (Most likely slightly lesser, as a factor is the shield shrinking.)

Wow, this topic is super dead, allow me to give it a little life.

After my 6 month hiatus to focus on school and melee, I have become much smarter in my general game sense for both melee and now SSF2 and I have discovered a few different things that Peach mains should really be doing.

1. Ftilt is low-key amazing. In a lot of cases, its actually better than Dtilt. Most people do not expect Peach's to do Ftilt in neutral, but it is a great way to cover the immediate space around you. Not only that, but it can actually catch opponents that are coming in from above if timed correctly. Peach's Ftilt hitbox swings upward and its last hitbox actually ends around her head. I've intercepted Fox SH approaches, Falcon SH approaches, Link's Dair (which was surprising) and any other character that has tried to approach from above or diagonally above. Ftilt then chains into itself on big characters, fast fallers, or people not expecting that another Ftilt can hit them (they have to jump pretty quickly, and lots of people don't expect it). On fast fallers that miss the tech, its perfect for a jab reset, which can lead to a huuuge opening for Peach to capitalize. Ftilt is also good for covering yourself when you are trying to eliminate space between yourself and your opponent, which I will go over in the next point.

2. Let's talk neutral game. Besides what I just discussed, I think Peaches need to use more Bair as a way to close space between yourself and your opponent. The key is to mix up the timing of the Bair: If they jump at you to intercept your jump, then stop midair with Float cancel and Bair quickly with a fast-fall, if they try to catch you from under you by dashing under you, then lean back and Bair right before you hit the ground. Full hop fade back FF Bair is very hard to punish and catches most people offguard who think you won't reach that far or that you won't get an aerial out in time, which often means they will miss the tech and you can proceed to float cancel FF Bair them and tech chase. Another way to effectively cover space is to have your back facing your opponent and fade back reverse turnip throw. Turnips "seem" to fly further when reverse thrown in air rather than just thrown straight up, and its a good mixup to the aforementioned Bair option. Aerial Turnip>Fair also covers space well and can turn the tides if the turnips hits them or their shield.

I have a feeling that most Peach mains (myself included) get overwhelmed by Fox mains that are moving extremely fast and are just throwing out safe aerials all over the stage, hoping one will land (cmon fox mains, you know its true). If Peach tries to challenge a good Fox player who is doing this, she will oftentimes lose, which she cannot afford to happen too often. I think Peaches need to bait more and when they see a Fox autopiloting with random aerials to just sit in shield and act out of shield to punish. A lot of Foxes get too caught up in throwing out aerials and actually throw out something unsafe that you would only know is unsafe if you sometimes choose to wait patiently. Grab OoS, spotdodge Dsmash, drop shield and Ftilt are all good options, and Nair ofc.

3. Up-spec, N-spec, and S-Spec. If you are on Dreamland or BF, I HIGHLY encourage Peaches to use U-spec from the ground to catch an opponent fleeing to a side or top platform whilst coming down. It can often lead into a grab or smash attack even depending on the character and their reaction time. If you do it to a side platform and catch them, pull the parasol in and out to keep them locked in for a guaranteed grab. N-spec also catches perfect ledge grabs. Anything that reaches through the stage can be countered I believe, which is useful against Link, Marth, and others. It probably wont kill, but it may make the opponent panic and recover too quickly, allowing you to punish. S-Spec can also be a great punish off of missed ledge grabs. Its trajectory is quite good, and can either lead to a kill or a very easy edgeguard situation.

I'm considering making a video that outlines and illustrates these points, so feel free to discuss them!

I don't know how much other Peaches do this, but I've never seen it discussed here so I'll add to what you said. Item physics in floats are better than any other Smash game, so SSF2 Peach has one major tool Melee Peach doesn't have: you can throw a turnip in float, recatch it and do anything you want, get the turnip to hit a shield and grab, turnip -> combo if it hits, retreat and pull another one, shield right next to them if you don't expect anything, turnip on shield to bait OoS (shieldgrab most of the time) and then punish, etc. It's seriously one of the best ways to approach a lot of characters. Some characters totally wreck it though, so be careful. (One of the reasons I think Pika-Peach sucks is that Thunder Jolt just absolutely wrecks this approach.)

Hmm, never thought of that. I've just recently gotten into throwing turnips more, but I'll give that a try and see how it works