time to disagree with my crew members:
Luffy- I've played tlord too many times, and a good luffy can get around the stuff with his hurtboxes. Honestly though, luffy's gimmicks and spikes are enough to put him in high tier in my book.
DK- DK is still hella good! They got rid of his jank, buy he still has an amazing combo game and weird setups that can throw someone off guard.
Bowser- Everyone knows how much I hate this dumb char, but its for good reasons. Personally I think that bowser has some wonky MU's against the top tiers, such as marth-bowser. He has a lot of gimmicks and weird combos/kill confirms that really put him in A tier imo.
This was made in like 5 mins dont hurt me

quote="KingPawn"]time to disagree with my crew members:
Luffy- I've played tlord too many times, and a good luffy can get around the stuff with his hurtboxes. Honestly though, luffy's gimmicks and spikes are enough to put him in high tier in my book.
DK- DK is still hella good! They got rid of his jank, buy he still has an amazing combo game and weird setups that can throw someone off guard.
Bowser- Everyone knows how much I hate this dumb char, but its for good reasons. Personally I think that bowser has some wonky MU's against the top tiers, such as marth-bowser. He has a lot of gimmicks and weird combos/kill confirms that really put him in A tier imo.
This was made in like 5 mins dont hurt me[/quote]

However, the issue with luffy is that he needs some method of winning neutral or even remotely approaching without being hit due to his large hitboxes. His poor frame data is honestly what ruins him most which doesn't help where he is a sitting duck throughout the whole entire move. And he doesn't seem to do well against characters with disjoints or rushdowns due to his lackluster get off me options. While you could debate that down-b is a decent tool for that due to its windbox and such, that pretty much makes him vulnerable towards juggling which is going to be problematic against matchups like fox who could just treat that as a free up air kill. Out of all the character. Luffy will drop the most. I did eventually do a bit more research and I no longer think hes as bad as I thought since he does have more options compared to other characters. So I may put him somewhere around low tier or so, maybe switching him with Black Mage since I don't really see Black Mage being that low. Since I believe that the reason why a lot of people are placing Luffy so high is due to matchup inexperience and how new the release is so there isn't much people finding ways to exploit Luffy's weaknesses.

Yeah, poor Luffy. His weaknesses are too much for him to be more than around mid tier IMO.

I feel marth is no longer to tier. no more grab game harder to tipper harder to spike. did they change his hit box?

Yea marth did receive some nerfs, but im pretty sure he still has some potential. But it'll probably require more precision to master the tipper fsmashes n stuff.

DK is high tier imo
He has a good combo game and pretty good mobility.His aerials are hella good. His fair is pretty fast, his upair kills ealier than his v0.9b incarnation and alot of move follow up into nair. His bair feels the same as his v0.9b incarnation. His smash attacks are f*** strong as hell if you manage to land them. His throws are nice as upthrow and dthrow and easily lead to his aerials. His tilts are still nice.

I revamped my tier list to have more accurate placements after doing some more discussions and research.


I am open to some feedback and i'm willing to give my explanations for all the characters.

Yeah, I'd like an explanation for why you think is not in spot and why is S tier?

Isaac tends to have rather poor frame data and a very linear recovery that can easily be exploited once he goes up. Whats worse is how due to his poor frame data he seemingly doesn't do particularly well against rushdowns since they can abuse his poor frame data and can get up on him close since isaac lacks any good close range options outside of back air unlike Zero Suit Samus who seems to have a better matchup spread against some of the more popular characters in the meta. And Bandana dee is a character with a small hitbox, disjointed range with disgustingly good priority, and great mobility which is a fantastic combination for a character which means that he is hard to combo, the character can beat out a lot of options, and can cover space well. Along with having a great projectile for spacing, a fantastic edge guarding game, great frame data, fantastic combo game, a great neutral, and some decent kill moves in general which can move him up to S tier. For those wondering why Meta Knight is in A tier while bandana dee is in S despite having a small hitbox, good frame data, disjointed range, and high priority mainly comes from his issues in neutral and a lack of a projectile which means that bandana dee has an easier time with getting in and has a lot more far range options.

Why is this high on the tier list? He doesn't have amazing strengths like many of he oher characters. does have a good recovery and strong Up Smash, but generally has a hard time killing outside of a couple of moves and he's one of the lightest characters in the game being just as light or almost as light as .

What makes you think is bottom 5?

is definantly not bottom 10. He's mid tier at worst as he has good grab range, Back throw is pretty strong, his Nair has low end lag, and he has anamazing grab game.

is nowhere near high tier. at best should be at Mid tier. He is combo food, has poor frame data, a mediocre recovery that is easily exploitable, and his mobilty isn't amazing. You can easily rack up 50% or more on with one combo. Also he has a giant hurtbox due to his giant size.

Game & Watch possesses fantastic disjointed range for his size with an amazing amount of active frames along with good frame data which makes a lot of his attacks rather safe. He possesses fantastic mobility thanks to his air decelleration for empty hop mixups in neutral and his neutral air can be used to catch landing and to set up lots of combos while being very safe making it great in neutral as well. This gives Game & Watch strong neutral and approach options and he also has a fantastic edge guarding game. Game & Watch's kill power isn't half bad either. He has setups from grabs to up air which serves as one kill option, he has great raw kill power in his smash attacks which can be used to pressure ground and limit movement options of the opponent thanks to them being rather safe moves. Along with having forward air being amazing at killing off the ledge and of course down air shenanigans. And almost all of his moves are safe on shield which makes him a very hard character to hit which compensates for him being light. And it also helps that he has an amazing recovery with fantastic distance and great safety. His lightness also means that hes hard to combo once the opponent wins neutral.

Samus honestly struggles REALLY badly against rushdowns, most noteably the spacies. She gets bodied by reflectors, has overall slow mobility which hurts her approach, and she lacks close range options making it hard for her to shrug the opponent off even with n-air. Samus also pretty much gets combo-ed and chain-grabbed with ease while being really easy to KO in the air. And given how prominent rushdowns are in the meta, she honestly really struggles.

Bowser at least has a decent defensive neutral and has one of the best survivability in the game which compensates for him being combo meat. Hes a hard character to properly approach and he possesses one of the best punish games for the opponent's mistakes. And while on paper, bowser technically sounds like he has slow a** frame data, but in practice its actually rather average if not above average especially when comparing to the rest of the cast. And bowser at least has a lot of safe options including a great out of shield option. And the overall reduced landing lag in SSF2 really benefits him. He also has a lot of armor on quite a few of his moves which allows for him to beat out a ton of moves in general and the fact that he has the best kill power in the game is honestly very scary. And his recovery is also pretty decent to an extent, while its distance isn't anything to write home about, it actually has a lot of hitboxes protecting bowser. And his fantastic range also allows for him to cover the space he could of used with better mobility anyways which is a decent compensation.

While Donkey Kong isn't a BAD character, the fact that he has a significantly worse neutral compared to a character like bowser and the fact that he is simply just a worse bowser kind of hinders him. A terrible neutral means that he will have issues actually getting in and racking up damage on the opponent for him to properly get a kill when he is more likely to just get hit compared to the opponent making it easier for the opponent to secure stocks on DK compared to Bowser. DK's recovery is also genuinely worse and simply doesn't have as much raw kill power or that much strong of a punish game compared to Bowser. He has to rely on a 50/50 grab in order to kill at a decent percent or a raw smash attack which means he must actually commit more than bowser.

Samus' ability to poke-out opponents with Ftilt and Dash-Attack is actually pretty good. Also can anti-air Short-Hop approach with Utilt, or react Pivot-Jabs. Can also just SH-Bombs to bait her opponent into an uncertain challenge if they approach. She also can chain-grab many of the rushdown characters herself (Falco, Fox, Falcon, etc.) and go into easy SH-Missile for edge-guard setups. And she real bullies characters with predictable/limted recoveries, so getting back to stage against a decent Samus can be annoying.

Can you explain your placing of pit being C tier and luffy being BOTTOM 5?

Pit I feel like is a jack of all trades. Most of his options are simply above average similar to smash 4, and that makes him a pretty damn good character, but nothing among high tier or anything.

Like I mentioned like 4 times for luffy. Luffy has no disjointed range on any of his hitboxes making him a sitting duck if he tries to space with his long range which is a big contradiction for his pretty good range.. He also has slow frame data and is overall very slow in general meaning that he will have issues actually winning in neutral in order for him to utilize his great combo game which is really a big issue. And the fact that his frame data is slow and his range doesn't have any disjoint pretty much asks for getting hit. Despite being "Bottom 5" he still isn't a bad character thanks to the terrific balancing of SSF2 beta. hell I think that the bottom 3 are still somewhat decent to an extent, but just rather flawed.

No disjoints for Luffy isn't as big of an issue as others are making it to be. He's a grappler-punisher, so you really shouldn't be extending your hurtboxes that often, anyways. His kit promotes defense/zoning in neutral and STRONG punishment for unsafe approaches, making him actually rather good against rushdown characters.

Having a grab option for virtually any distance/situation is a very challenging thing to deal with, but it requires a lot of know-how or you'll be blasted for extending a hurtbox in the open.

I liken him to Zangief; requires a TON of patience in certain MUs, but one grab and you're done. I think Luffy will reward cerebral players well, but his high skill cap, lack of approach, and hurtboxes on extended limbs keeps him from really pushing top tier. High mid is a more appropriate place for him, much more so than bottom 5.