You have a point. Still, doesn't mean it's safe though. If Lloyd misses the opponent literally has enough time to Falcon Punch him back.

I honestly think that Lloyd's side special shouldn't last as long while in the air.

also when do think they'll give Lloyd an aerial down special?

falcon punch's startup is longer than sonic thrust's endlag, even if falcon starts using it at exactly the same time as lloyd's sideB.

While I'm not sure if this makes a significant difference in the debate on whether Falcon Punch is the best option for the majority of Sonic Thrust punishes, I thought I would point out that what you said is not strictly true. I just tested it, and Falcon Punch punishes a whiffed Sonic Thrust even if Falcon starts his move a few frames later than Lloyd's. There is actually a chunk of endlag after Sonic Thrust that just has Lloyd standing in his idle animation unable to act, which deviates from the usual cues associated with endlag. That's probably throwing people off. Unfortunately, we'll have to wait for the resprite to fix that particular issue.

It is impossible for me to play lloyd online against randoms without them rage quitting.

not true, I tested it by starting both moves at the same time then holding shield with both. Lloyd's shield came out first.

Guys I got this:
Falcon: Nspec startup = 21 frames, active for 4 more frames (22-25), then endlag for 13 frames (26-38). Total duration is 38 frames.
Lloyd: Ssped startup = 6 frames, active on 7-17, and endlag is 11 frames. Total duration is 28 frames.

7 frames to get close enough and react, my point stands.

Eh? That's exactly what I was getting at. It's not the best thing to react with due to the strict timing, but technically speaking Falcon Punch does come out before Sonic Thrust ends. I tested it by having Lloyd Sonic Thrust and Captain Falcon Falcon Punch behind him while Lloyd holds shield. He gets hit by Falcon Punch every time.

Lloyd definitely needs to be nerfed. The grave blade should only hit you if:
1. You are within range, a range that's the same as Samus' neutral special.
2. On the same level. Right now it can hit if you are a bit above or below... reduce the vertical range.
3. You are on the same platform. This means if you are on one platform on battlefield and Lloyd is on the other, he can't hit you from across the map.
4. It can be perfect shielded.
5. Does not launch you closer to him.

Demon fangs should not cause flinch.

His moves have the longest lasting hurtboxes (like sonic thrust) that hit you after the initial thrust. Take this off as it does not allow him to be punished.

His aerial sword swings have virtually no start up lag or ending lag. I can literally short hop all day versus three teamed ai computers vs me and only lose one stock.

edit: got greninja'd by skailler

Ftilt -
Decreased endlag
Dtilt -
Trajectory is made a little more vertical
Dair -
Will ledge cancel before the ending slash
Bthrow -
Higher trajectory to allow for better followup potential
Dthrow -
Much faster animation, last hit does 1% more damage
Nair -
Slight landing lag when landed too early in the move.
Utilt -
Slightly decrease knockback scaling
Fsmash -
The hitbox does not linger as long
Dair -
When hitting the ground prematurely, there is no ground hitbox until the ending slash
Neutral B -
Can not change current air momentum while the move is in progress
The slash does not have a hitbox
Side B -
The underside of the blade is a sourspot, doing lower knockback at a higher angle
Up B -
When an aerial is performed out of Up B, the move has substantial landing lag.


Just my 2 cents

For my previous point, I meant the Samus fully charged shot. And by vertical distance, i dont mean the sword, i mean the hit from across the map. On the Naruto map, one could be on the top part on the right. side, with lloyd on the top platform on the left side and he could hit from there, even through they are not on the same level. Lloyd's demon fangs shouldn't have flinch for the same reason MegaMan's mega buster shots (uncharged) were given no flinch: You can spam them off stage and just stun lock them. I think that Sonic Thrust should have a shorter duration, or if not that, have the knockback reduced after the initial hitbox, so if you are trying to recover, Lloyd can't just sonic thrust waaay before you get onstage and just KO you; it would have a sweet spot in the initial frames, much like Captain Falcons aerial knee kick thing.

Like I said before, it was ranged earlier. The fact that it got more range makes it at least somewhat "viable". And like Gosick said, just plainly JUMP! to avoid it. GB is pretty much useless, even with its range. Your Naruto stage problem is due to a visual bug that lets it look like the platforms are on different heights, although they are. At least that makes senseGB going over platforms... I see your point there, but once it happens to you it should stay like this. And if you see Lloyd performing ST before you actually recover, just go higher/lower than him. Problem solved