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Lloyd 
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Whens elaborations

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Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:41 pm
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Chaos' Lloyd Guide wrote:
A-TIER
- :tails: 65-35
Tails may not be the most common character, but he packs quite a punch when the player uses all of Tails’ attacks correctly. If Tails has proper spacing and timing, his powerful and high priority moves will most certainly make of a challenge for Lloyd. He can take advantage of your recovery and drop you offstage, down below, with U-Throw fastfalls (which aren’t too hard to do and setup). If Tails stays in the air most of the match, Lloyd will have struggle to start up combos with the use of Demon Fangs and Grave Blades, and will have to rely on SH uairs or SH fairs. Tails can run circles around Lloyd after baiting him into the air. He can combo him back and forth and Lloyd won’t have much say after he’s put in the air (or lost his jump) Tails has decent range and decent kill power on his attacks, so he can kill Lloyd at early %’s on top of all of this. Tails 4 jumps are (fortunately for Lloyd) short, so Lloyd, if persistent, can edgeguard Tails relatively easy in comparison to Tails edgeguarding Lloyd. Tails struggles edgeguarding Lloyd, because his main edgeguarding tools, bair and fair, all have to be perfectly spaced and timed to hit through Tiger Blade. Despite this, Tails’ dair is extremely useful and easy to hit vs Lloyd’s Tiger Blade. An easier option is the high priority cannon-ball. This sends Lloyd up, straight into anyone of your 3 edgeguarding options, Bair, Fair and Dair.
The only good part about this matchup as Lloyd is your range. Lloyd will have to predict everything Tails will do, and that will prove hard as Tails can Tailsdash across the stage at anytime, stop the charging of a Tailsdash with an early jump, cancel the slide of the Tailsdash with a walk. He can keep Lloyd guessing half the time and usually it’s a good situation for Tails. Lloyd will have to be patient and precise with his attacks as running straight into Tails’ spindash will usually cost a stock, vs Lloyd anyways. Lloyd has to keep himself on the ground and stay as mobile as you can.

Lloyd will lose to Tails’ moves most of the time if he chooses to challenge it head-on so Lloyd is forced to play defensive. Keep enough distance, space with fairs and correctly DI and SDI out of his combo moves, which lead to big punishes and usually (vs Lloyd) the stock. Capitalize on your punishes as well as you can. But, lucky for Lloyd, most Tails players (including me) have predictable patterns. If Lloyd can find a rhythm (hahahaha) for their attacks, Lloyd can time his dash dances and punish, usually with a fair or dash attack.

Tails lacks reliable combo breakers, combined with him being lightweight and a fast faller, makes comboing him (as Lloyd anyways) extremely easy.


oops spoilers

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Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:06 pm
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Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:15 pm
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Yo fellas just found out another cool trick/tech with Lloyd. (ty devdraco for verification)
So when you down b, there's about 2-3 frames before you can move again. In a high pressure situation, that's quite a bit of downtime that you don't want.
So what you wanna do in this clutch situation, is press down b and immediately hold down shield. This cuts off those last few end frames and goes right into your shield.
On top of this, starting up and leaving your shield is pretty much no frames at all, so from here, you can cut straight into movement again.
Now try this: Down B > Up B. You'll notice a short space of down time. Now do this: Down B > Shield > OOS Up B. This cuts the end frames of the Down B and the start up frames of the Up B.
It'll take some practice to get used to in real matches, and I literally have just discovered it a few minutes prior to posting this, but hopefully you guys can try it out offline and in your online matches and give some feedback on what you think of this.

Have fun gaiz :lloyd: :pikachu:

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Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:23 pm
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SoF | Suli Hyuga wrote:
Yo fellas just found out another cool trick/tech with Lloyd. (ty devdraco for verification)
So when you down b, there's about 2-3 frames before you can move again. In a high pressure situation, that's quite a bit of downtime that you don't want.
So what you wanna do in this clutch situation, is press down b and immediately hold down shield. This cuts off those last few end frames and goes right into your shield.
On top of this, starting up and leaving your shield is pretty much no frames at all, so from here, you can cut straight into movement again.
Now try this: Down B > Up B. You'll notice a short space of down time. Now do this: Down B > Shield > OOS Up B. This cuts the end frames of the Down B and the start up frames of the Up B.
It'll take some practice to get used to in real matches, and I literally have just discovered it a few minutes prior to posting this, but hopefully you guys can try it out offline and in your online matches and give some feedback on what you think of this.

Have fun gaiz :lloyd: :pikachu:

No offense but... this is useless

Shield in this game is frame 3 and dropping your shield takes 10 frames. If you want to do anything OOS it takes 3 frames just to put up your shield which is the same amount of time for grave blade's endlag. The only reason you'd think its faster is either grave blades endlag isn't actually 3 frames or you're having a placebo effect. N

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Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:48 am
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A cancel is the act of interrupting (or canceling) the animation of an attack. Cancels are mostly used to set up combos; usually, a normal or special attack is canceled into another special attack. Cancels can often open up opportunities for combos that would normally be impossible otherwise.

Canceling is performed by attacking; while the attack is performed, the player must input the next attack. If done quickly enough, the character will stop, or cancel, their current attack and perform the input attack.

(Source: Street Fighter Wiki)

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Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:19 am
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Street fighter cancelling is very different than Smash, so the definitions aren't really interoperable.

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Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:46 pm
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Cancelling is universal in most fighting games because of how fighting game code is structured and all that good stuff.
A lot of Smash Bros tech is because cancelling exists (e.g. wavedashing, which also incorporates game physics as well as controller inputs).

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Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:38 am
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Hm? Wavedashing doesn't have anything to do with cancelling, it's just a natural result of using a momentum-modifying action to collide with a solid surface. "Cancelling" as it is understood in traditional fighting games (i.e. canceling one move into another) does not exist in Smash unless one counts Project M Lucario or SSF2 Lloyd's up B. Smash has jump canceling on things like Melee Fox and Falco's reflectors. It also had land cancelling on moves like 64 Fox's shine and Fox and Falco lasers in 64 and Melee. However, cancelling in the traditional sense is not a standard Smash mechanic.

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Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:03 pm
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Cancelling definitely does exist in Smash Bros. You just mentioned the key difference between a cancel in Smash Bros and a cancel in traditional fighters; momentum plays a roll. Wavedashing does involve cancelling inputs (you're doing 3 inputs in a fluid motion, ignoring majority of the animation), however, like you said, momentum and physics plays a roll.
There are some exceptions ofcourse (PM Lucario + SSF2 Lloyd) but that's the general idea of cancelling in Smash Bros.
Anyways, as for the technique I posted, it definitely works, not only to Up B faster but also to make Down B safe as at times it can be punished to due it's end lag.

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Tue Dec 22, 2015 1:42 pm
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Do you guys count jab canceling?

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Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:23 pm
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Ok, fair enough. The literal action of cancelling certain animations into others exists in Smash, certainly. Interruptable-As-Soon-As frames are a good example. It's just prone to confusion to use that term in a fighting game context without specifying that one does not mean the standard fighting game definition of what a cancel is.

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Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:25 pm
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So I found double demon fang cancelling is a thing and as you can see in the YT vid below, I cancelled the 2nd demon fang with a grab. I'll try emulating this when I have the time, but so far I haven't been successful in doing so.
YouTube Video:

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Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:07 pm
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it looks like he said double demon fang but the animation wasnt a double demon fang, not a cancel. still weird

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Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:28 am
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One demon fang deals 3%, as you can see in the video, this is a cancel since that single demon fang did 6%. This is super weird, there was 0 animation involved for the second demon fang. I'll look into this today and see what I can find. This could be Lloyd's most broken tech if we can find how to use it in an actual game lol.

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