Fox's OK recovery and his fall speed are basically is only weaknesses, and you're complaining about them. In return for those admittedly glaring weaknesses, you get great combos, the best shield pressure in the game, a nearly-instant move that can combo into all of his kill moves and is safe on shield and usually on whiff, good edgeguarding, a good projectile, a reflector, an amazing dash-dance, excellent mobility in the air and on the ground, decent range, and really good kill power. Accept the problems with your character: don't just say you don't like them, and realize that you may be overlooking the rage that BM players feel when they see that Shines wreck their recovery and that they have no good OoS options against Fox, or when Puffs die at 60% to Shine -> Usmash off of a mis-spaced aerial on top of a platform

Where in my post did I say that? Read it again and you'll see I said Fox is top 10 but there are some problems with certain moves. Far from weak.

Again reread my post. I never said fix the the issues, just pointing things out I noticed since I play all the games. I said he is TOP TEN! He's really good.

When you say that there are problems with something or that you don't like it, you're implying that it should be changed. The changes you imply that you'd support are all buffs, so you send the message that you think Fox needs them. You may not have meant that, but it come across that way, especially with other people on the fora going on and on about how really good characters somehow need ridiculous buffs.

My bad dude. Typing can be frustrating due to no social cues or emotion so it's easy to assume I was implying that. Sorry. But overall Fox does well. He sucks online though due to how precise he is and lag kinda makes movement choppy.

Lag also makes him damn near impossible to edgeguard.

There's ups and downs lol

Dude what are you talking about?

Forward smash is one of his best finishers.

Fire Fox and Fox Illusion go the right distance. The Fire Fox is understandable due to how the controls for the game was coded.

I can probably count the number a times another Fox has killed me with fsmash on one hand. It's really not.

I think his fsmash is strong, but it doesn't scale very well, so I wouldn't use it as a finisher. Also, the range on it should be longer because in the animation his grounded foot slides back while he preps the kick. Try going into training mode at 1/4 speed to see what I mean. Perhaps if the range was better, of the speed a little faster, but even then the trajectory isn't very favourable for killing.

Yeah, I think that the distance his recovery goes is fine, but I want the devs to do something about the blind spots in his recovery. It's so silly when you get into a spot where you are too low to do the 45 degree angle, but too far to reach horizontally after the 90 degree angle.

It's very frustrating, and I'm not really sure what can be done about it.

Suppose you press up to go straight up. Then, if you hold left or right once you start moving Fox will drift in that direction. If this is done for all orthogonal angles Fox will have a myriad more ways to back to the stage.

Okay, that would be amazing. Sold.

So after messing around with shine I have reformed my stance on the move

An excerpt from the balance sheet I've been working on


From what I have come to understand, atleast for changes 2 and 3, are present in Melee and PM. I'm not sure if those properties are exclusive to Shine, or if they are the result of certain aspects of the SSF2 engine.

Can any devs maybe address this? I'm fairly curious to know if I am correct in my assumption, or if these aspects are intentional.

Regardless of how you feel about my proposed changes I still would like to better understand certain aspects of the engine.

also, Line 1 is probably something to do with how shield stun works. EDIT I think it would be better to say "reduce shield hitlag instead"

and some people in the IRC also say that shine should have less hitstun, but im undecided on that aspect. However, I do think that hitlag should be reduced, although it should still be a bit longer than Melee to compensate for the lack of wavedash

How? Fsmash is terrible. Even up smash has better horizontal range. Also side b and up b do not go the distance the do in Melee, Brawl, and Smash 4. It's fine though because Fox in this game is way better than Brawl and Smash 4 Fox. Much rather have a bad Fsmash and recovery then have barely any combos and no approach.

Wrong. It was a bit better last demo (it had more range), but now you're better off using U-throw+B-air on fast fallers to kill them horizontally.

If you really wanna use F-smash, then do it to another Fox after 2 U-throws (provided they DI wrong and don't notice you going for it).

Wow so many people commenting on my post about Fox's forward smash damn. I meant to say last demo and still thought it was good this demo.

@code
Fox's air speed is only average.