You're saying this like if Rest was her only tool in 0.9a, like, she was top-tier, one of the most broken characters of all the smash games, just because of rest ? Really ?

Considering the fact that rest could kill at a very low percent, can be combo-ed with any aerial/grab, and had a very long range. Yeah rest was definitely her best tool in 0.9a. I mean it wasn't her only tool since she had a very good air speed/mobility for a very good air game but still one down air is all it took to get a rest on someone. As of jiggly puff being the worst character in ssf2.. Yeah she kinda is.. She received the most Nerf's of the entire cast some of which are just drastic... Heck Sonic being the best character in 0.9a only got one nerf(and I think you know exactly what that is). Yes she does have a good air game but it's just not as good as it was before. Heck Meta knight would be considered to have a better air game even going far as for having the best air game in SSF2. Yeah Jiggs can do a wall of pain but it's too easy too get out of it with DI. Her up-tilt can only combo fast faller's IMO. The only real attack that can combo to rest is surprisingly forward air. The only character who comes second to Jiggs is black mage.

Not saying Rest was the only tool that made her good. Rest is suppose to be her saving-grace to the nerfs she got. Mobility nerfed, overall knockback being nerfed, Rest being nerfed, along with setups into Rest being nerfed; it's really hard to make her viable. To land a Rest, you have do an incredible hard-read or a super high-risk/reward setup. That's how Rest should be, but Rest being nerfed in knockback makes it less worthwhile to attempt.

But even when you make the god-like guess right, you're opponent comes back and can kill you with a full-charge Smash or other attacks.

So basically: with Rest being highly punishable on-hit, it's might not even be worth using. Because of that, you have to rely on everything else about her; her weak neutral-game, poor ability to approach, and low damage output with her mediocre KO potential (outside of Rest).

You think Black Mage is low-tier? Nah, man. He's got silly stalling and gimp-setup on most characters. But it's sad that he involves using the same attacks over and over.

Although I do agree with most of these things I think you're exaggerating, she really isn't as bad as you make her out to be.

Her combo game is still as good, you just have to find the right approaches. And she can still do good s*** with the multiple fast, low-lag aerials. But you have to work hard now indeed and take care that you don't mess up your punishes. Rest is still a good move imo which kills at ~60%, just not at like 30 or 40% anymore, big risk = big reward. She is less good now obviously but still viable enough.

I am not really a jiggs player so the things I said aren't guaranteed right at all lol, gonna test her a bit more now

60%? Not really: https://www.mediafire.com/?c2c242j24hxe7ci I know both are extreme cases but they still show how with good DI you can manage to survive Rest making it not that reliable.

Also did some tests in Lunar Core with some of the attacks with greatest knockback on a DK with 60% on the rightmost part of the stage and DI'ng up. From best distance launched to worst:
1st Wario's Waft - KO'd
2nd DK's Giant Punch - Launched off stage
3rd Jigglypuff's Rest - Didn't leave the stage
4th Naruto's Rasenshuriken - Didn't leave the stage, wasn't a huge difference from Rest.

Now, let's see some properties of those:

Wario's Waft:
Ease of conecting it: Really big hitbox that reaches both sides.
Vulnerability afterwards: None, sends you flying upwards to both aid in recovery and help escape enemies.
Charge time: ~90 seconds, charges automatically.

DK's Giant Punch:
Ease of conecting it: Big hitbox that extends forward and grants superarmor on DK.
Vulnerability afterwards: Small lag after doing it; however, this lag can be cancelled if done in the air by airdodging
Charge time: ~3 seconds, can be stored.

Jigglypuff's Rest:
Ease of conecting it: Small hitbox inside her hurtbox.
Vulnerability afterwards:~3 seconds where you can't do anything.
Charge time: None.

Naruto's Rasenshuriken:
Ease of conecting it: Projectile that flies till it leaves the stage with high priority (only surpased by Ichigo's neutral B). Also has a trapping hitbox to make it easy to connect at close range.
Vulnerability afterwards: None.
Charge time: ~3 seconds, can't be charged in the air.

As you can see all those attacks are way less risky than Jiggly's and still yield better results (sans Naruto's, but not for a big margin). The only upside is that Rest doesn't need to be charged unlike those other attacks; but, considering it's so hard to hit with it, you're more likely gonna land more Waft's as Wario than Rests with Puff.

In my opinion, Rest deffinately needs some buffs. Giving it slightly more knockback is the common suggestion, but I've read other suggestions (this is for PM's Puff) like making her wake up earlier for a succesfull hit or even have her recover some % if it connects. I believe the other attacks need some nerfing too but that doesn't belong here.

Wanted to talk about Rollout too. Though I really like some of the buff's it recieved (damn I love that shield damage!) it still needs some tweaking in my opinion. The most obvious problem (and most likely a glitch) is when doing the attack too upclose another player: it will send Jigglypuff flying with no control, sometimes causing an SD.

There are 3 things that could make the attack slightly better imo:
1. When hitting with it and Puff is left spinning in the air she should be able to control her direction; this could help get away from the other character or move closer to the ledge if off stage (she had this in Melee)
2. Make it charge a bit faster and make the knockback at earlier stages a bit stronger (keep the fully charged knockback as it is tho). Again see how it works in Melee, only the very early frames have this attack move slow; in comparison, halfway through the charge in ssf2 still makes her move kinda slow.
3. Make the player have more control on how long it lasts. Unlike other rolling attacks (Sonic's, Yoshi's) she's stuck in it for the whole duration od the move

Thoughts?

Rest is also invincible on startup, and for a little bit longer than you would think. I think just more knockback is in order, not a reduced lag on hit. If they survival DI the Rest and die, they get Star KO'd and she gets to wake up unchallenged. If they survive with survival DI, they usually get to come back free because she is asleep (but if she wakes up early now she can secure the kill for sure). If they DI straight down, usually you can still punish Jiggs with something, so if she does this at too high a percent while you have another stock she can't Rest (if she had less lag on hit, then she would never have to worry about this very situational issue. It also removes an element of counterplay to the Rest).

Rollout is pretty bad lol, and always has been, mostly because of its predictable path and large startup. More control after a successful hit would be nice.

The range on Waft is incredible. It leaves you in awe.

Yeah but you're only considering the situations when it does land, which is very hard to do. For a character that can be KO'd so easily due to her lightweight Rest doesn't seem like a very useful tool at all. You miss it it's most likely a stock gone. I know it's supposed to be "high risk high reward" but the risk isn't paying off. Is the invincibility on startup really that great? Coz as far as I've seen it only helps not get hit by the attack (obiously) but doesn't act like a "counter" (like the Shine for example, dunno if I make myself clear tho), so leaving you invincible for the very first frames of three long seconds isn't much.

Also with reduced lag on hit I don't mean "instant" wake up but at least a few less frames so when you do land it and get a KO you don't get punished. So far none of the attacks I mentioned earlier have this drawback (actually no attack at all).


I'm really not sure what you mean by this (english ain't my first language that's why...). But if you're saying you should be punished for landing a Rest at high% then I don't think is fair, considering that besides smash attacks most of her other attacks won't kill till reaaally high percents (leaving her without much options for KO's) so Rest ends up being one of her only KOing tools when at ~100%. If you didn't mean that then disregard all that haha.

And yeah Rollout as always been pretty lackluster haha, but it still got it's situational uses.

@sparty88 you sure hate that attack! lol

The part you quoted is an observation of counterplay not an opinion. Sure, I think it sucks if you can't use a great move because of the potential to die, but the way to punish Rest when you get hit is to know that you won't survive so you gotta just die as quickly as possible to get more time to punish.

Rest is invincible on startup, but it doesn't last very long at all. And exactly, in it's current state it has to be saved for a while before it will kill. Otherwise it's high-risk-low-reward.

I think Jigglypuff could use a small boost to Rest. It should at least kill really early if she has no reliable setups, and should not be punishable on hit at above 50% on some characters. It's ridiculous that her defining move is punishable on hit 75% of the time: if you're making a tech read or some other hard read to get a Rest, like reading DI or something like that, you should most of the time be rewarded.

Here's an awesome Jiggs combo I pulled of last night!

On Cap'n Falcown?

Bro, dat guy don't know the action that is known as defending.

Yeah, he picked U-tilt as his defense, which was the worst option possible lol. But the combo still felt awesome

After much thought about Jigglypuff, I think she's viable with a secondary to handle Puff's bad matchups (because her bad matchups really suck). Ichigo and Jiggz together would cover most of her bad matchups and make her much more viable as a character. I think as the meta develops, being a solely Puff player will become harder and harder as Ichigos, DK's, and the like make your life hell.

I bet, nothing beats landing Rest or a Knee....

Unless it doesn't kill