: no where near the amount of results as fox, hes also way more vulnerable in terms of approaching as well as in disadvantage, as well as having a somewhat harder time to close out stocks, as of the current meta he's defs not as good as fox

: arrows allow pit to maintain a strong stage presence, you see if he spams arrows at your shield your kinda forced to do something to get out of shield, and offstage arrows are great for intercepting recovery moves, particularly against slower recovery options like luigi's missile and peach's float. "how hard it is to aim arrows shouldnt be an issue for a competent pit player.

she has been buffed a lot compared to 9.b where she sucked, but even with the buffs to airspeed her neutral depends a lot on spacing moves that are beaten out by faster, longer range moves, particularly from those characters higher than her.

his recovery is very good vertically, not so much horribly due to the awful speed of side b making it really easy for tons of characters to go out and spike chibi, his zoning game is good but he lacks in a lot of other areas, rather poor approach game and arguably the worst disadvantage state in the game

lloyd's neutral is similar to chibi's in that he has an amazing projectile to zone other characters, but he also possesses a great airspeed allowing him to mix up shields when approaching, along with that a lot of his solid approaching tools, with literally all of his aerials ( barring nair) being safe on shield if spaced correctly, and that's not even mentioning his mixups into grab.

: He's definitely been hit hard with the nerf hammer, but hes still got good tools across the board, his edgeguard game is still great and his neutral really wasn't hit as hard as you think it was. He still has his versatile aerials, decent kill potential (particularly with fsmash) and enough of a mixup game to contend with most characters, even if he loses to most.

: I honestly think he's better than bbm but not much more, poor range on a lot of his moves, and his old reliable combo starters are now much easier to avoid. He doesnt have the comeback potential of rasenshuriken anymore due to its nerf, and can kinda struggle to take stocks at times. Compared to BM for example, who got mainly nerfed but still got a few buffs here and there, naruto just got nerfs on nerfs. Its no wonder that not only are there no naruto players, but the ones who did play him in 9.b dropped him for other more viable characters.

: by far one of the weakest characters as of the current meta, his moveset took a rather hard hit in regards to his reliable combo setup moves (dair in particular) while still struggling from his main weakness from 9.b, his lack of speed, which gets exploited hard even from the mid tiers of the current meta.

: Ichigo is in a great spot thanks to the buffs from 9.b. His moveset was overall buffed in terms of speed, allowing him to cover space very quickly with moves like dash attack and nair. He still has the downsides of being a fastfaller, but with the upsides of being a rather heavy character. This ensures that Ichigo, with his long range combo starters and great follow up options can do pretty much everything well and live quite long too.

& Mario is just slightly better at a lot of things that Luigi either does slightly or notably worse at. Mario has a much better neutral thanks to his great normals, and a great punish game to boot. Luigi in comparison struggles at getting in due to his slippery traction and poor air mobility. Mario has an easier time killing off his openings as well as having a recovery that isnt as linear as Luigi's.

: His moves do have decent range, stuff like dtilt and bair are amazing. However many characters can simply avoid some of sonic's aerial combos by abusing his aerial attributes. His aerial acceleration as well as his airspeed are rather fast, making it hard for sonic to link into his own moves without dropping a combo. This is what people mean by "he feels too fast for his own good". While his dash acceleration is incredible too, dash canceling allows more control over sonic on the ground. In the air, he doesnt have that, and its not uncommon to see a sonic get a grab, try to follow up and just zoom past his opponent. I believe people who are dedicated to sonic for a while will get used to it, but its a really harmful thing and if he had an air acceleration nerf in a future patch i can honestly see sonic leaping to the next tier.

MK has gotten slight nerfs to the strength of nair, fsmash, dsmash all being weakened, but lets not kid ourselves by saying just because of that, mk is now much worse. In fact he may just be on par with his past self. His neutral is still amazing thanks to his large disjoints in all of his moves, the best edgeguarding in the game with both wall of pains with fair and a strong bair for intercepting recoveries. MK also has his fair share of combo starters, with dash attack, dtilt, utilt and bthrow leading to aerial combos, shuttle loop ladders, confirms into his buffed dimensional cape and so much more. And for the record, its not that his jump height has been nerfed hard, in fact his standard jump is the same as 9.b. The addition of jump height negation affects all multi jump characters, making later multijumps not go as high compared to earlier ones (a trait shared with Sm4sh)

You do know that being a slow character doesnt offset the idea of being a zoner, its funny that was mentioned because MOST ZONERS ARE RATHER SLOW TO BEGIN WITH
BIG EXAMPLE BEING OUR VERY OWN SSF2 BETA SAMUS.
sure both characters are slow but they are both great at stuffing out approaches with quick, long range moves, setting up walls and traps with their multitude of projectiles, and have decent tools to compete up close.
Im not saying they're the same character but they sure do have a similar idea in regards to how they function in the current meta.
Megaman is over samus here due to his ability to live longer due to his gravity, his walling tools being better than samus' as well as his ability to keep control of neutral vs a large amount of the cast.

Everyone's giving Sonic the work in these tier lists

What's ironic is that in 9b, Sonic's weakness was the lag on his aerials + their low range. But his spin dash was great (it was the only thing stopping him from being bottom tier imo)
And in Beta, Sonic's aerials were improved, but his spin dash was nerfed to heck. If Sonic's spin dash was like it was in 9b, he could potentially be in the A to A- range. But even as he is now he shouldn't be that low on the list. He's a solid mid tier.
Granted, tourney play is a factor in these tier lists, and I haven't seen a lot of Sonic play there...

Sonic's acceleration is fine, he's already has that nerfed moving from 9b. Honestly his acceleration helps him retreat from disjoints and such where other characters can't. As a Sonic main, I can say that his spin dash is really what's holding him back. Any other issues I can think of are minimal, like the range on his smash attacks.

I like how this tier list is already gonna be nearly irrelevnt since 1.0.3 is dropping soon.

But there is a different between a slow character and a SLOW, SLOW character. Samus isnt even slow, she has a decent dash cancelling and a lot of aerial speed. She also has one of the quickest spacing tool in the game, her Zair.

I firmly belieive Megaman is totally overrated and wouldnt even put it in the Top 10.

Samus is pretty slow. Look at her dash and SH in comparison to a char like Mario.

MM has really good zoning tools, but it's hard to make firm placements without representation. Same goes for a ton of characters.

The other problem is that I think in a game as balanced as this one, personal strengths matter a lot, and player skill ultimately triumphs. Look at the characters that win tournaments: big surprise, they're just the characters that top players play. It would be one thing if every Pikachu suddenly started winning tournaments, or if people surged in rankings after a char switch, but Gax could probably win a fair amount of tournaments with Yoshi alone. That doesn't say anything about Yoshi, really: just that matchup inexperience combined with a solid fundamental neutral will allow you to beat people with almost any character.

Why do you guys keep responding to tier lists with every single reason why it's bad, and then respond to those posts by disagreeing with every single thing the other person mentions and giving a reason for each, and then respond to THOSE with even more disagreements?

Seriously tho, the guy that hacked into my account knew perfectly well that this is a quick way to make someone look bad. Just ask the competitive smash section.

Speaking of which, why isn't this whole thing over there?

Samus is not slow. Maybe if you only play FD, but Samus on a stage with any kind of platforms is really fast

https://youtu.be/C98fsoKx4oc

Not sure why you guys did this so early, but okay

because 1.0.3 is soon.

That last bit makes the whole thing a bit moot, don't you think? Regardless, it does feel like there are a variety of philosophies that just came into a collision on this list with not much explanation to the process or some notable placements, so it isn't surprising that there is a bit of backlash.

That being said, can someone give a good explanation to the Bomberman placement? Still waiting on that.

Bomberman lacks a lot of representation in tournaments (sounding like a broken record!), and has problems with rushdown characters that can outclass him in close combat.

Lack of representation shouldn't be the difference between bottom tier and top of B (where he should land). That's also why I asked to see who each contributing member plays as. If no one is really putting time into him, then that doesn't amount to the most validated opinions, does it?

He's got a good gtfo jab, brutal grab game, and good frame data on his useful tilts and most all of his aerials. Not to mention stellar ground/air speed and aerial control to help with his footsies in neutral.

What he lacks is coverage, which can be challenging in cross-up pressure. But this can still be overcome with smart positioning and OoS choices.

Man i forget he's even in this game. LOL

I've only seen ONE BM in the last 2 months.

Just to quickly interrupt, Bowser's projectile is angleable (and the standard angle is differs in the air than on ground); definitely not a homing projectile.

finally, we can all agree Luffy isn't that good. I told you all Luffy was overrated.
He is a decent character tho.