I agree with this description of the MU for Marth: Falcon can really get in and hurt Marth's large hurtbox and great combo weight for Falcon, but Marth IMO has an advantage in neutral and offstage which compensates.

However, I'd rather be the Fox in Fox v Falcon even though the matchup is so volatile it's hard to give a number. Fox can also really hurt Falcon off of grabs, and Fox's punishes are more consistent. I'll talk more later, but I think even to 45:55 in Fox's favor is more likely than your ratio.

can we move this discussion to the falcon thread? I'll put my input in if so, but this doesn't seem like the place to discuss it really

Shouldn't Chibi-Robo be closer to the top of the bottom tier? He has good disjointed moves that can beat swords (MK in particular is actually close to even for him), good kill moves, a decent recovery, and OK damage racking.

What , you guys didn't discuss about that in the back room?

While I personally think that Chibi should be higher, the truth is that there is no place for Chibi in the current metagame. There are extremely few Chibi players, and of those that do play him none achieve high placings. TCS was expressing his opinion of Chibi's placement, but the fact is that Chibi doesn't have a reliable damage racking game, many of his combos are short and any followups off of throws are extremely affected by DI and he won't be getting kills off of them in this case (dthrow->uair will not work, you'll be forced to do fair instead).

He has several good attributes on paper, but they don't seem to fit well as far as competition goes. For the time being at least.

Also, I'll add that I had the high vote for Chibi-Robo, and it wasn't enough. The current meta is that Chibi-Robo is the worst, and until that changes (either through tournament results, some dedicated main, etc.), my position is decidedly nonstandard.

Chibi's kill power doesn't matter in the long run, because it is focused entirely into a small collection of moves that he cannot combo into barring DI or roll reads at strict percentages. To make matters worse, those percentages at which he can combo into KO moves are usually not those at which said moves will actually score a knockout. If Chibi wants to take a stock with something other than Nair on the favourable end of the stage he basically has to land a slow, punishable move raw. That sucks. Granted, he posessess one of the best pokes in the game in Fair, but it doesn't lead into anything past low to mid-percent, which is when he would most need it to. His combos are absurdly simple two-to-three hit strings that leave little to no room for DI traps or even setups into favourable positioning, while Chibi himself is combo and reset food for the entire cast. Not to mention that he is the proud owner of one of the worst recoveries in the game, vulnerable to edgeguarding by basically every S tier and most other characters. His recovery only becomes kind of good-ish if he is knocked to the upper corner, which shouldn't happen too often even with great DI because of his fast falling speed.

Also there is zero way that Meta Knight - Chibi is close to even. One character dominates the game with rediculous speed, nearly lagless moves and brutal edgeguarding. The other has to try to keep up without whiffing his thousand-years-of-lag moves and getting five difficult oppenings to his opponent's one. It doesn't matter if Meta Knight dies early; he shouldn't be getting hit by anything like that at all.

But isn't this game competitively speaking, going to be played more online than offline?

at the moment, yea sure
doesn't mean that can't change (although it probably won't since everyone here is barely motivated enough to even show up at online tournaments they signed up for so.... lol)

The MU is actually pretty even. Of course MK has the advantage when it comes to speed, offstage game and edgeguarding. But the MK shouldn't be able to gain the advantage so easily if the Chibi plays it safe. How I see the MU in Chibi's eyes is that Chibi has to play a really good defensive game and go in only when the MK whiffs an attack or misses a tech. Chibi has plenty of disjoints and defensive options that can cancel out MK's options and can keep him out of his space. Moves like Fsmash, Nair, and Bair are really useful because of their range and disjoints and the amount of damage they are able to rack up. Uair also kills MK pretty early, but should only be used for a follow up after Uthrow or Dthrow because going for a raw uair is asking for a punish. Chibi's specials do a somewhat decent job of slowing down MK, for lasers only cause a tiny bit of hitstun and Side-B only pushes him away.

MK's main problem is that Chibi can wall him out fairly effectively. He has an initial dash to get in with, but his airspeed is poor so he can't really get in like Puff, and he has trouble getting in around fsmash, fair, nair, grab, usmash, lasers, etc. Once MK gets in, he can't really get too much, at most 40%. Uair kills at 80%, so even one good read can change the tide of a match, and uair is extremely good at sharking below platforms. MK actually does have trouble getting down in the MU, because of his airspeed and lack of a quick down-aerial. The main points for MK are that a well-spaced nair beats toothbrush and kills at 80%, dair beats uspecial even when sweetspotted and dsmash or fsmash will finish the job otherwise, and the fact that MK wins slightly in punish game.

I don't really get that. You could say the same with Goku. He's less played (by IRC players) than Chibi. Yet he's A tier.

Goku has at least a dedicated Dev who mains him and knows a lot about him. Chibis combos are basically 2/3 hit strings without being able to combo into his kill moves in most cases.

Ichigo is way underrated. You wait for one top tier player to pick him up, (think someone like SS, Lunary, Kyoz etc, not me) and it will change the way you look at the character. If you nail his tech he is the fastest character on the ground with some insane killing/combo power, great gimps and decent recovery. Think Melee Yoshi before Amsa

Spidr already plays Ichigo, and I think Lunary plays him as a secondary. He already has high-level players: his problems are that he's easy to combo, has a terrible recovery, and has problems moving quickly. Fair wavelands are great, but they take some time to start up and they can't be controlled as much as Melee wavedashes or tailsdashing. Characters like Fox can just overwhelm Ichigo.