Hullo! It's-a me! Your favorite irrelevant BR Member, -CJ-.
Recently, we connected with the TO Union to bring you a universal stagelist, we have since completed that mission!

Credit goes to the TO Union (credits below), and to all of us from the BR. Without further ado, the stagelist in all of it's glory! (All stages have hazards OFF unless stated otherwise. This stagelist is built for a 1-2-1 first game, winner bans 3 format.)

Starter Stages:
Battlefield
Tower Of Salvation
Smashville
Pokémon Colosseum
Dream Land

Counterpicks:
Final Destination/Waiting Room. (3DS is banned!)
Yoshi's Story
Castle Siege
Rainbow Route
Dracula's Castle (Hazards ON)

The TO Union: Dark Ermac, Corvid, Len/Doq, Suli Hyuga, Strife, FearZero, and Tyler. You can find them over here: discord.gg/kh3tHjw

Is FD A counterpick simply because of 1 side killing 1% earlier or is there something else I do not know about?

I want to point out a minor correction, that FD and Waiting Room are fused, as usual. (3DS, however, is still banned.)

Also, do the colors mean anything or are they just for decoration?

Hold on what about BO5, does it change at all, do we get more stages, are the stage list different between BO5 and BO3. Since it's now universal, do other tourneys with a differnet role set but follow everything to be FCR not anymore.

FD is a counterpick because FD with training wheels (aka ToS) is already a starter. Having both as starters would be a horrible idea, thats why FD/WR was moved. That and the obvious factor of ToS literally being the metagame at this point. Yeah, Im not BR anymore, but that makes the most sense



Again, not a BR member anymore, but the list mentions nothing of having differences in a Bo3 and a Bo5 set (I think Doq is the only guy who runs that really). Also, the FCR is run by Ermac and not the BR. Sure, he is a BR member, but he hasnt enforced a specific ruleset/stagelist for the last 3 years or so, so I highly doubt he will start it now.


I would like to ask if that stagelist takes DSR into account, and if it does, if the amount of bans or DSR is adjusted for a Bo5. I have repeatedly run into the issue of having to counterpick myself for Game 5 simply because there were 5 bans in place (3 strikes + DSR taking another two strikes), which on a stagelist with 10 stages is quite a big deal. Perhaps 2 bans for a Bo5, or maybe no DSR instead? Also, give us Jungle Hijinx back

Fixed, and yes, colors are just for decoration.


P much what Cookies said, FD actually is more of a benefit to certain characters rather than a perfect playing field which is why it's a CP now.

Ask DarkErmac about anything FCR, as for BO5s, that's up to the tournament.



We created it without (DSR+BO5) in mind. If a tournament includes DSR+BO5, it is up to the TO to make whatever adjustments they need.

May I ask why was 3DS banned?

General consensus was that it is too small, also being flat didn't help it's case.

Allow me to elaborate.

Being small isn't inherently bad—it has the same width as Smashville, as I've proved in the past. However, that is not the only thing working against it.

There are three Final Destination-class stages in the game, arguably four as some count Tower of Salvation. The "fusion" system—where Waiting Room and Final Destination are considered a single stage for the purpose of striking—is not well-equipped for handling a three-way fusion efficiently and fairly.
One solution would have been to count the stages separately, but as all three stages benefit characters similarly, doing so would have given too much freedom to characters which benefit from Final Destination-class stages.

As for banning 3DS specifically, as opposed to Waiting Room or Final Destination, the primary issue is with the ledges. Back in v0.9b, Final Destination itself was banned for lag reasons and Waiting Room was not yet available, so tournaments had to use 3DS in their place. During the v0.9b scene, there were numerous complaints about the ledges and underside of the stage, which several characters' recoveries can easily get caught under and fail because of it, most notably Marth. A rough analogy would be the problem with the ledges of Lylat Cruise in Brawl and, until it was patched to fix this issue, Wii U.

The size, as CJ mentioned, was also a factor, though not the deciding factor. Waiting Room and Final Destination are very similar in size, with Waiting Room being slightly smaller. 3DS, being smaller than Waiting Room and farther away from Final Destination than Waiting Room was, was considered an outlier—too different to fuse, but too similar to count separately.

I like the idea of 3Ds being band it is also really easy to get stuck under and FD and Training room prevent this by having collisions to guide you back to the edge

Why does everyone demand free recoveries in a game where recoveries could do with a universal nerf to begin with You dont need handholding for a state thats supposed to be disadvantageous really. Smashville and 3DS are the outliers here (and ZSS occasionally), but other than that "gitting gud" is the best way to deal with that "issue".

Back ontopic, I still think that Jungle Hijinx > Castle Siege personally (slope isnt as steep which makes it not as prone to get in the way, and it isnt nearly as cramped as Claustrophobic Siege), but oh well.

Should have stuck around for the discussion and vote on that

I agree with you although I wouldn't put Smashville under the same category as 3DS because Smashville has collisions that guide you back to the edge too. Rainbow route also has this problem and I think it should be legal. I'm just saying if we're going to pick between FD and Training room and 3DS and we can only pick two the two should be FD and Training because of the fact they are similar to each other and they are harder to get stuck under. I'm also not a competitive player so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I remember back in 9b when 3DS was legal and I would watch an SSF2 tournament on twitch I would even see some of the best players get stuck under 3DS and that would cost them the game. You don't really see this in smash4 or Melee. If you think about it SSF2 is the only smash game that has stages like this.

Smash 4 had Lylat Cruise until it got patched (have you ever thought why getting stuck under 3DS was commonly referred to as "Lylat'd"?) while Melee Battlefield arguably has the worst ledges in the entire series. They are that awful, especially for not-as-good players. Oh, and the reason why people dont get stuck under Smash 4 ledges at all is that not only does almost every character have a crazy good recovery in that game, but the ledges also have ridiculously large sweetspots. Boot up Smash 4, pick Robin, go to Lylat and try and see how close to the center of the stage you can end up after an Up B below the stage and still grab ledge.

Given that the recoveries in SSF2 already are really good for most characters, we really dont need "better" ledges, especially if the issue is only with a few select stages to begin with. Ive died plenty of times to 3DS, Rainbow Route and Melee BF ledges, and yet it almost always felt it was my mistake for getting stuck under there, not like the game stole a stock from me.

Also, Smashville is sort of a special case because holding towards the stage actually makes you much more likely to not grab the ledge (however that works I do not know), which is why the "guide you to the ledge" thing you mentioned is coming next patch.


@Harr Sure, hmu when you discuss the next stagelist so I can re-apply and dip real quick again

I see your point now and I can agree your right.