My first 1.2 Tier List

Wait a sec, why is Krystal top tier?
She has the worst recovery in the game, which seems a bit too bad to make her top tier.
Honestly, I do think Waa isn't that bad.
And was is Simon that high? He's good, but not THAT good.

You don't get the point, recovery doesn't really matter, is the fact that she has actually disjointed attacks which are utterly useful such as up air, down air and f-smash (and by the worst recovery, it still belongs to Lloyd), also her grenades and sniper makes her a big zoner character. But I still got my doubts about Strife's tier list, like why Falco has gone down, that's not even Ultimate Pichu for placing it too high, Rayman probably isn't that broken, but that position is far very low.

Krystal definitely doesn’t have the worst recovery on that list, especially when Naruto and ZSS still exist. You have to be smart with how you play all of them.

I touch on Waluigi and Simon on their character discussion topics, but Simon boils down to:
• Playing a fundamentally different game from Ultimate centred around patience and neutral control with aerials and projectile.
• Has normals that are way too good for any zoner to have, giving him an excellent up close and combo game.
• Excellent projectiles that play into the control aspect and force your opponent to act, which is what you want.
• Excellent matchups against some characters due to how good his kit is, most notably completely hard countering Rayman.

Waluigi:
• Exceptionally gimmicky moveset that lacks a lot of clear fundamental tools as a whole, leaving his advantage state with a lot of holes.
• An awkward recovery that combines a lot of Luigi’s recovery’s worst traits and lacks a lot of the power.
• A neutral game that can’t really work well with aggressive play due to Waluigi’s slipperiness and awkwardness to control, and doesn’t work defensively due to gimmicks and not entirely functional moves that only are effective at one range.
• A lack of general kill confirms that work without tech chasing.


Lloyd also still doesn’t have the worst recovery. Naruto and ZSS still say hello.

Falco only got nerfs that weren’t compensated by it’s buffs. Most of it’s bad matchups are still bad and some of his good matchups got way better for him, not to mention the new characters aren’t exactly great for them. He’s a very good case of light nerfs knocking the character down a few pegs because everyone else around him also got better.

Pichu is now pretty much fixed. All Pichu really needed to be good was a fix to the Discharge State and being able to do Discharge Up Special twice not only increases his offensive pressure, but also fixes the biggest issue of the Discharge State - putting Pichu at a further disadvantage. It’s also a really good example of how some characters don’t need too much to really fix them. Pichu’s definitely now been revitalised as a character.

Rayman is way worse than most people are giving them credit for. The problem is that Rayman is exceptionally janky, and almost all of his really good s*** also comes with a lot of really bad s***.
• Yes, he has range BUT none of that range is a disjoint save for Neutral-B and Side-B and he has a lot of blindspots on his normals.
• Yes, he theoretically has the best recovery in the game with Plum, BUT your opponent manages to hit the Plum OR Rayman off the Plum, his recovery then likely becomes the worst in the game. Also, he still has to land, and Dair is good but landing with it can be a huge commitment.
• Yes, Plum looks good as a projectile BUT some characters just flat out invalidate it (such as Simon)
• Yes, he has a bunch of good s*** that’s very very jank BUT he also carries both Luffy and Pacman’s problems of no disjoints and having their zoning tools being turned against you.

Unfortunately, swords and some zoners will still give Rayman tons of s***. Simon for one almost completely invalidates Rayman because he can very easily contest all of Rayman’s neutral by just throwing projectiles and whipping any of his normals.

Rayman is still a good character. Most characters are, but a LOT of the BR are now coming around to the same view as I am that Rayman is not as good as we initially thought.

Is World that Never Was legal?

Possibly, but unlikely.

Coming back to this after a good hiatus, so out of the competitive loop. You mention ZSS’ recovery is terrible? Is it due to her reliance on tether and lack of hitboxes on her recovery? Also for BM, how would I approach in neutral outside of nair, fair, or ftilt? Meteor’s angle and BM’s poor jumping make it an ineffective projectile still.

tier list (im pro at ssf2 btw)
S >
F > everyone else

Open to constructive criticism

Since 1.2.1 came out with some new balance changes (mostly nerfs to Lucario and Simon, and buffs to Tails), I want to apply a tier list to at least open up some discussion here.

A+:
A:
A-: Lucario Waluigi
B+:
B:
B-: Ryu
C+: Pichu
C:
C-:

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Thanks to 1.2.1 reverting some of the changes to his jumps, Tails has picked up some ground he lost from 1.2's initial release. I don't think he is low tier anymore, although he is still a shell of his former self.
Lucario The character got hit a notable amount from 1.2.1 changes, but still a very good character. He was probably top 5 before, but is now just barely outside of top 10. He won't be relying on high aura jank as much as before, but this iteration of Lucario as a character is still powerful character even at lower percents, helped out by them buffing his low aura as well.
The other character that got hit a notable amount from 1.2.1. He didn't drop off too hard due to his how solid his moveset is, but these changes definitely helped out the character that he countered the most, like Rayman.

I am open to discussion about this.

I've definitely seen worse tier lists, but there are a couple of serious faults with this tier list.

1. Pikachu is far too low, same with Pichu. Pikachu barely got touched as far as the nerfs go, and he still has a s*** of good options. In fact, he was already a contender for #1 and the main contender for #1 (Sheik) actually got hit way harder than Pikachu. Definitely an S Tier.

Pichu got massively better though. Discharge Up-B is now an actual recovery and both hits combo into each other if you angle it right, which can kill stupidly early. The changes to projectile trading and grab hitboxes as well really help him improve his rushdown as well. B+/A- imho.

2. Waluigi is too high and Simon is too low. Simon still has a great neutral and a ridiculous advantage state, even if it isn't as oppressive as it was pre-nerf, and the nerfs were honestly just good enough for him still to be a very high tier character. A+ for Simon. Waluigi on the other hand as a very linear neutral, inconsistent kill confirms, a mediocre recovery with Little Mac syndrome on Purple Torpedo, and some generally mediocre options outside of things like Up Tilt, Nair, Dash Attack and Dice. Widely agreed to be the worst of the new 6, probably B- at best.


This is probably the last list I post on the forums.

Can you explain why Chibi fell so far? Wasn't he top 15 last patch?

Absolutely.

Chibi has basically been stuck in the same spot since 1.0.3.2. He basically hasn't changed at all, and with the buffs to worse characters being significant and nerfs to his bad matchups being relatively insignificant, plus the introduction of the new six, Chibi's still in a good spot (borderline high tier), but he's being left behind somewhat due to the powercreep.

I forgot to tell you how was possible that 1.2.0 Ness had increased until reaching top 10, and now he's being a mid tier, like he always seems to stay not good or bad.

Idk. According to the 1.2.0 patch notes, I found that Ness actually got a surprising amount of nerfs in the resprite:
1) Less range on forward, up air, and down smash.
2) Slightly more startup on forward smash and endlag on down air.
3) Down throw having more knockback, making followups harder.
4) PK Flash having coming out slightly later.

He did receive a few nice buffs, such as:
1) Back air has a slightly longer hitbox duration, as well as less landing and endlag.
2) Grounded PK Thunder having a longer duration.
3) PSI Magnet having slightly longer duration and less endlag.

However all of this is on a character that is already in the lower mid tiers, while characters below him got better buffs.

I also found that Kirby received a similar treatment in his resprite, but it is less drastic.

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Btw, what do you guys think about Yoshi?
Judging from the 1.2.0 patch notes, his Egg Toss recovery got nerfed directly, but they semi-reworked his physics to be much more floaty.

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It is probably just me, but I found Pikachu's nerfs to be a bit more drastic than some people says, with more endlag on some of his moves (forward tilt, down tilt, up air), some of his KO moves having more cooldown (forward smash, up smash), or some of his KO moves being weaker (up smash, dash attack). The patch notes also mentions that they Quick Attack's "Grounded version now has a 20 frame cooldown like the air version". Still a good character, and I may be overvaluing the nerfs too much, but that is what I gathered.

Pichu is definitely better after the 1.2.0, but I still recognize the flaws of still having very little range, still very light while damaging itself really quickly with recoil damage, and its KO power being weak without discharge state.