I agree, I kind of speculate an overnerf on Lloyd and DK(that means balance them, not make them terrible).

I'm honestly interested. TSON said they were gonna give s-special a very small nerf.
So I don't expect much, probably a shieldstun nerf or somethin'.

I disagree with saying we have poor balance and are overnerfing/overbuffing. Maybe a couple of demos ago, sure, but not lately. v0.8 and on has had very good balance, and this build is even better because we've gotten rid of polarizing attacks like Sonic's side special. I mean, honestly, even with Sonic's side special, the characters at the bottom of the tier list last demo still had the ability to keep up with the top of the list. Peach is basically unchanged in v0.9b and think about how many people thought she was bottom tier last demo before we saw TAC3 play her? The "top tiers" for this patch are mostly due to bugs (DK punch math bug, priority bugs, Peach turnip freeze bug, Kaioken freeze etc.) that we're already planning fixes for. Bugs aside (AKA post-this-coming-patch) we have an extremely balanced roster. There is no clear number one and there is no clear last place.

When characters rely only on one tool (v0.9a Mario/CF uair, etc) and become mixup-free and can combo characters across the stage with one attack or just win by using the same attack over and over because it both kills/leads into a kill move and also combos into itself, or is otherwise playstyle-centric and unavoidable or OP in another way, THAT must die. And it has died. This current roster, of course bar bugs, won't have that. Yes, even Ichigo. Once people figure out how to punish sideB, it won't be used as much. Don't expect sweeping changes like a redone DK because it's not going to happen. DK may be incredibly strong but he has to use his whole moveset to be incredibly strong and has to DI well to escape 0deaths or else he won't win. Obviously the math bug on fully charged giant punch will be fixed, but outside of that, you will still have DK players styling on you if you are being outplayed by them. You should practice.

A lot of the common complaints for this demo are for, outside of bugs, nerfs on characters that aren't particularly good and aren't centered around one OP move, but rather the move is "annoying". Let's use Link as an example, people are up in arms about his boomerang but I am 100% certain that the move is an accessory to a moveset that is not only OK without it, but the tool itself is not as good as people are initially saying it is so it doesn't warrant a nerf.

I feel that if 10% of the effort that is being put into telling us that you can't avoid something that was tested a lot internally, campaigning for a nerf, etc. was instead put into banding together and finding ways to beat it out, our metagame would be years ahead of official Smash titles. Link is designed to be projectile centric so if I go in and take away from our awesome boomerang I have to buff his other projectiles, which honestly at this point are all extremely good and if I buff any of them significantly it's going to mess up the moveset balance. The fact that boomerang uses a special kind of knockback stacking where you can't just fsmash someone through it after dragging them across the stage and forcing them to take the 8% or whatever that it deals makes it a lot worse than people are hypothesizing that it is... and if the opponent SDI's up you can't get a double dsmash hit. The best thing to do is grab, and if they DI correctly the grab won't even work and you can be punished for trying it. And that's assuming you hit with the boomerang to begin with. No amount of nerfs will give you good DI - if you're letting Link's boomerang drag you from one side of FD to the blast zone on the other side, first of all, I'm sorry, you should probably do some research on Smash terms, we can help you with that. Use what's called ASDI - hold up/down/left/right to get out. It's that easy.

As for Ichigo sideB, yes, this was tested a ton internally both before and after, and we're going to give you a tiny nerf since a lot of people are having issues with it, and all this will do is make the methods that are already effective to deal with it more effective...If you continue to blindly run at Ichigo knowing he has that tool, unless we put a whole different move in that slot or fundamentally change the way the attack works (which we aren't doing) you guys are still going to have the same issues after the nerf. Ichigo is not even a contestant for top tier with current sideB imo, there's plenty of characters with way better matchups than him as a whole even though people are running around saying he "shuts the whole cast down" with one move. Ichigo still has to use his whole moveset to be effective, it's not like sideB is all he needs.

Honestly I think the gauge of balance for this demo is so skewed right now that I'm tempted to drop off of the forums/chats/etc for a couple of months just so that you guys can't complain and are forced to work together to discover how to use characters to the fullest and avoid things. And shield things. It's no offense meant at all, like I understand having devs on the forums and being able to communicate with them easily allows you a direct channel to let us know what your issues are... I'd probably complain to Sakurai about a million things if he'd reply, but really, please try to invest some effort into advancing the metagame instead. Think back to how "OP" Ike was to everyone when Brawl came out. I'm sure you can all see how that turned out now that he's number 23 on the tier list a couple years later. If you want tips on how to deal with things as certain characters I can give you some since I'm pretty well-versed with the whole roster.

That's just how I see it.

I see exactly how you're saying it. I'll admit, I'm very happy that you all take the time to talk to the fans. While many people don't see it or how awesome it is to have this opportunity to talk with the people that are actually making the game. I understand how annoying things can be when people repeat the same things over and over again. And trust me, I know annoying. All we fans want are attention, to be recogized, to feel apart of what's going on. You guys have made the best fan-made Smash in the world. Not because of how many characters, stages, items, and so on. But because of how in depth you actually pay attention to tha game.

Honestly shoulda showed you more respect in the regard of balancing, you are the devs after all. So here's my thing though. I DO test all of this stuff with what I can test in the current demo.

Now of course I'm not saying that you guys aren't testing this stuff out (which you probably are 24/7), but what I am saying, is that there are alot of things that tend to be overlooked at first glance. Like what you said about Peach, there are alot of characters in this demo AND the past demo that were just simply overlooked.

For example.

Everyone thought Donkey Kong was one of the worst characters in the game just because of how his "terrible recovery" or "huge size" automatically made him low tier material. Very few buffs later, just look at him now. "HE'S OP" "NERF HIM" "WHERE IS LUIGI?"

I see how annoying that is...

That's why us fans "complain" about things, we want to get things across of things we don't like. Of course we don't expect you to satisy or EVERY need and want, but we do our best to get attention so that some of it can be adressed.

I would gladly accept your offer for helping out with tips, in fact, I'd most greatly appreciate it! So just remember, I'm not here to bug ya. I just wanna get these things across so that they can help others get used to the game. People ditch characters all the time just because they can't win against something specific, so that's why we complain about it.

Sorry for all my rambling, don't like to waste all your time. Sure you're a busy man.

This demo is the most balanced Smash game I've ever played, even with DK punch infinite super armor death at 20%. However, I disagree that Donkey Kong was good in the last demo, or even overlooked. He's gotten so many buffs from last demo that his entire game has changed. Just the recovery buff helped him out so much, so saying that he was decent last demo is IMO mistaken. I think any character could have won a tournament last demo, but I think that the tier list reflected the matchup spreads and overall chance to win. This demo is super balanced and any character can do well, but that doesn't mean that the bottom tier is underrated. Who knows: maybe aMSa will come and show everyone how Yoshi is the best character in the game, or how Jigglypuff is OP. But I think that given players of equal skill, the current opinions people have about characters (minus flash step and a couple other things) are more or less on point.

You obviously haven't even used him to his fullest potential yet.

Who is 'him'?

Offline, sure, Ichigo can be dealt with. The complaints are coming from people who are in less (sometimes far less) than optimal games and are simply unable to time Ichigo when he's not invisible. The game is beautifully balanced. If the back end can be improved to offer smoother online play, the complaints just about end. I'm ready for a full version that doesn't change. Then the meta game can officially develop.

This. Ike still rocks in online mode, because his attacks are difficult to punish with lag. Same thing with Ichigo. Offline, you can react in time.

Ichigo isn't Ike though. Ichigo naturally has good frame-data, especially for his long-range and priority. Most of his moves' hit-boxes are out by frame 3-5. So even offline, he would be difficult to punish or challenge with your character's own moves overall.

It is not about Side+B and it being able to punish it. You can't play him like other characters. He can escape and interrupt offensive pressure very well, but also can get through the toughest zoning you could attempt. He's not as approachable, he's more punishable in a reasonable matter offline, yes; but you have to really wait for an opening.

And the fact you have to be patient with playing against him waiting for a safe opening, it makes a match take 5-6 minutes. Because so few characters can challenge him offensively. It's risky, forcing most characters to be wisely patient.

Everything you just stated here I completely agree with. Approaching Ichigo is a risky move and would often be a mistake for most characters.
Fighting Ichigo is even worse if your in stages in battlefield especially when your on top of ichigo on the platforms.
You don't wanna be on top of Ichigo on battlefield.

Edit: After doing some training I realized that you can actually attack Ichigo out of side b with the correct timing.

@TSON Since you have good knowledge of the whole roster, how would you deal with the Peach vs Ichigo MU? Floating above and out of range doesn't work because, you may avoid the side-b, but then Ichigos just U-tilt. And you can't zone them with turnips from float or on a platform because he can "block" turnips with f-tilt, jab, or side-b past it. If you're ever on a platform above him, U-tilt or U-air catches you, and if you shield and come back to around stage level, he can just side-b>u-tilt again. You can't approach him directly unless you knock him down and go for the tech chase because his range can easily intercept Peach's float cancel aerials and most certainly her ground options.

your best option is to bait out the side special or other moves (since Ichigo has a bunch of end-lag on most of his moves) and then punish while he's in lag.
although, some punishes might feel like you have to act frame perfectly (a tiny bit of an exaggeration, but close enough)

EDIT: oops, forgot to mention that turnips and floating in general are insanely important in this MU
like, specifically floating at the right height for Side-special to pass underneath you and miss as you float toward Ichigo's departure point and then fade back toward his entry point (maybe waiting for an up-tilt if the player seems to be doing that frequently after side special), and then hitting with a b-air or n-air
or you can float higher than his up-tilt can reach, have a turnip with you, and drop it using the grab key and letting it hit Ichigo at his entry point (even if he up-tilts it, the turnip is still an active attackbox until it dies when it touches the floor, so it'll still be above him) you can use it as cover as you descend toward him and punish with an aerial.

Donkey Kong.

I played DK pretty solidly in v0.9a, but he had serious weaknesses. His recovery was far worse than it is now because from any sort of horizontal trajectory he had no room to mix it up: he just had to go as far as he good and pray that they would miss their punish. He had a tougher time than he even does now getting around projectiles and disjoints. His Punch, his main killing option, was worse. Notably, however, it's also the fact that the other characters were better at beating him. The Sora matchup was insane due to chaingrabs, the Jiggz matchup was a flurry of anything -> Rest to kill at 30%, the Sonic matchup was DK trying in vain to hit the swirling mass of Light Dashes and combos that would attack him, a lot of characters had serious chaingrabs and performable zero-deaths, and in general everyone just comboed him into oblivion. He had good range, a good chaingrab, and a decent grab overall, and decent kill power. Nothing else was really good.