I was really more ranting about SSF2 uthrow v Melee uthrow, so sorry about going off topic lol.

I'm really fine with it either way, and I see the general principle that defensive input is a good thing. It's a small Fox nerf because every so often you'll miss, but not a big deal. It also means I guess that you can't do it near platforms or ledges because you can't run off.

EDIT: Does anyone know whether Fox can connect uthrow -> uair on floaties like Puff by using Shine on a platform quickly to get an extra jump (e.g., uthrow -> jump -> Shine -> jump -> double jump -> uair) at any percents? I can't connect it, but maybe it works on border characters (i.e., Marth)?

Nah because they wouldn't be in hitstun for long.

@Savy
I do understand what you are saying. However, I have seen people D.I. after the throw has been finished or D.I. down to escape my follow ups. I would like to see more hitstun added though before it becomes D.I.'ble.

Just be glad its not like last demo when it worked on the majority of the cast, even characters with below average falling speed and floaties.

At the current moment, the up throw->up air only works at kill percentages on Fast fallers(like Fox), High fallers(like Chibi), Above average fallers(like Lloyd) and a few average fallers(Mario).

The up throw into up air on Jiggs in Melee was just so stupid and didn't work on Samus, but I guess it's fine since you could Smash D.I. out of it and that Jiggs had up throw into Rest on Fox.

I also really like how in this game throw endlag isn't dependent on weight, which always seemed like a bizarre way of balancing the game to me.

What do you mean by DI after the throw is finished or DI down? Do you mean DI'ing followups to avoid getting hit again (although I'm pretty sure that at low percents on heavyweights/fast-fallers uthrow -> uair -> bair is almost always guaranteed regardless of DI)?

I talked to Cleod about that, he said that 3D games do things like that better.

Yeah that's what I mean. I have noticed certain players who go up against my Fox know how to escape some of my follow ups. For instance I use up throw and try to perform an up air on the fast fallers, Fox, Falcon and Bomberman, D.I. down to escape my up air. I short hop up air to read it.

You are still not getting it, stop condensing characters with above average accelerated falling speeds into the category of fast faller.

Here let me show you how I categorized things.
http://mcleodgaming.wikia.com/wiki/Falling_speed#Categories_of_falling_speed

On fast fallers, which again are Fox, Falcon, Bomberman, up throw into a fall hop up air won't work. You have to perform up tilt, up smash or a short hop up air after the up throw. Though I would recommend performing up tilt or up smash before performing up air.

High fallers like DK, Goku, Ichigo, Link, Chibi and MM, the up throw into up air into a back air is guaranteed yes. However, if the opponent goes into the opposite direction where the back air will hit, you need to use Reflector to turn around to get the back air.

However, on above average fallers(Marth, ZSS, Tails and Lloyd) and a few average fallers(Sonic, Mario) along with a few below average fallers(Sora, BM, MK), which is from the test you performed and I got results from human players that up throw into up air only works. However, you may get some more up airs on a few of the above average fallers.

Outside of the fastest fallers and heaviest characters, uthrow -> FH uair -> bair is your main combo. The characters that this doesn't work for due to being too low for your uair have their own combo trees (e.g., on Fox you can do utilt -> regrab -> uthrow -> SH uair -> bair).


I think it's a lot easier to distinguish between three categories in both weight and falling speed: high, low, and medium. Obviously combo trees are more specific than that, but in talking roughly about followups I'd much rather say heavyweights/fast-fallers and trust that people put Link into that group and not Mario or BM.

It may be easier, but that doesn't make it accurate and kinda ridiculous. It's like people saying spike over meteor smash, which is stupid.

Also you say heavy, but Samus is heavy, well, medium-heavy but is she susceptible to these combos? Nope. Chibi and Fox, are susceptible to these combos? Yes. Are they heavy? No, Fox is light while Chibi-Robo is medium-light.

If we start dumming down things like this than we what's the point of going over things like this in the first place? I mean we finally can put characters into accurate categories, why stick to putting certain characters into a category they don't belong in?

Dude I know, I perform different combos depending on the character I am playing.

Up tilt into up tilt on an aerial works on floaties and below average fallers which is something I like. Fox has combos across the board on different characters which is unique.

I'm trying to say that Fox has essentially four scenarios out of uthrow: too high to hit, FH uair to bair, FH uair, and SH uair. SH uair and FH uair to bair are both fast-faller combos, FH uair is a high-faller combo to use your terminology, and too high to hit are usually floaties. However, it's more complicated: weight also plays a role in vertical knockback, so DK is more susceptible to uthrow combos than Chibi-Robo. Also, the sizze of the character's frame plays a small role. Instead of trying to enumerate all of the combinations of weight and falling speed and describe the combo for each of them, it's a lot easier to split the cast up into easily comboable characters, middle of the pack, and hard-to-combo characters. This distinction isn't perfect (Samus can get comboed really easily sometimes but most often not depending on horizontal v vertical combos), but it's a decent abstraction to make discussions easier.

What you're seeing isn't DI; it's drifting after the fact. After further testing, I found that it actually is possible to DI Fox's Uthrow... to make a difference of a few pixels at +200%. For all intents and purposes, then, it's impossible to DI it like a normal attack.

Also, why would you want more hitstun? It already has enough for what it's meant to do. Adding more hitstun would just make followups super free, which is the exact problem that it has now.

No what I mean is that at kill percentages for characters, they can escape the move if they throw out a quick attack or if the Fox player is not fast enough. Now think about this when they D.I., they can escape the move all together if the Fox can't read their D.I. in time.

Also they can always nerf up throw and up air altogether if you are fine with that.

Edit:
In terms of recovery, what do you guys think about this.

Fox Illusion having less start up frames, less ending lag, less landing lag and a larger ledge sweet spot.

Fire Fox traveling a little more distance or the same distance in the NTSC version of Melee along with having a larger ledge sweet spot.

Or having the distance you want to go dependent on how long you charge Fire Fox.

Fox doesn't need recovery buffs. The one thing I would like to see from the other characters is fewer annoying semi-spikes *cough* Bomberman so that Fox doesn't die as early against some characters, but I don't think he needs a recovery buff especially in Illusion, which is already difficult to edgeguard with lag.

I totally support that if uthrow becomes DI'able, which I support, it needs slightly more hitstun to keep the borderline characters (Marth at lower percents, BM, Mario) in the combo. If you just remove the DI multiplier and do nothing else then you'll be giving it a major nerf.

Fox doesn't need recovery buffs. The one thing I would like to see from the other characters is fewer annoying semi-spikes *cough* Bomberman so that Fox doesn't die as early against some characters, but I don't think he needs a recovery buff especially in Illusion, which is already difficult to edgeguard with lag.

I totally support that if uthrow becomes DI'able, which I support, it needs slightly more hitstun to keep the borderline characters (Marth at lower percents, BM, Mario) in the combo. If you just remove the DI multiplier and do nothing else then you'll be giving it a major nerf.

I think he does because Fox is light and he has one of the worst ledge sweet spotting problems in the game. That's why I was saying he needs buffs to his recovery. Well not increase the distance fr Fire Fox, at least allow him to have a bigger ledge sweet spot for both recovery moves.

Fox is supposed to have these problems: he's a glass cannon and already top or high tier. If you want to buff him, make utilt have Melee's horizontal range and buff uthrow uair. That way, characters can still play their anti-Fox game (combo him offstage and kill him) while allowing Foxes to play their game better (pressure shields, bait and punish in neutral, get tons of damage, get a quick kill).

Are you serious?

I just said buff his recovery options and you are going off about buffing other things?

He most likely will be nerfed in Beta so why not buffs his recovery options.

I am sorry if you didn't know that characters are getting more landing lag when using their special moves. I mean Fox already has ending and landing lag when performing Fox Illusion along with problems sweet spotting the ledge with both recovery moves. Asking for helping his recovery options shouldn't met with out cry than going on to say that his other options should be buffed.

Most people can gimp his recovery options already, so asking for a buff for him or even the slightest buff is asking to much?

Edit:
After re reading what you said, I guess that would be good. However, I still stand by my decision.

I don't understand why you have to berate TCS for wanting a simple discussion. Chill out dude.

He simply said Fox should be buffed on stage rather than his recovery, which is supposed to be Fox's main weakness. You're going on justifying your arguemnt for a buffed recovery because of the universal special fall lag and by assuming he's getting nerfed in Beta. Which isn't likely since everyone is pretty much in consensus that Fox is overall balanced. The worst nerf he MIGHT get is Bair becoming a sex kick. Which isn't even bad.