Bowser has pretty quick OoS options along with a lot of good close-range moves to keep out most Rushdowns along with him possessing a decent projectile on his own that can outprioritize most projectiles. He also has a lot of armor in most of his moves which makes it hard for projectiles to beat out his attacks unlike Donkey Kong. Bowser's neutral is actually pretty good, its just rather defensive. He has F-Tilt which has broken range and can space out opponents in neutral along with him having a fantastic grab range which allows for him to pivot grab opponents to get one grab which will lead to the kill. His Frame data is actually not that bad in practice along with him possessing quite a bit of safe options. His endlag isn't great but it isn't terrible and he can work around it. His range makes up for his mobility since it already covers up ground. His recovery has a decent enough distance while also having lots of armor and invincibility frames. His landing lag isn't great, but since this is SSF2 where things have less landing lag generally, its not much of an issue. Plus lloyd has a big landing lag problem and he is considered high tier too.



Samus is fine where she is in Mid Tier tbh. Black Mage in mid tier is pretty fine too. Black Mage still doesn't have a particularly good neutral along with having some below average mobility and a pretty exploitable recovery. It is a big enough issue for him to not be able to get out of mid tier, but I do feel like his other options/tools do prevent him from being any lower. His neutral-b is a lot worse for a "Mini-Witch Time" since it rquires a lot more setup and its slower in general, along with Bayonetta being able to utilize witch time better in general.

Wait, he has armor on his moves? Which moves have armor?

Honestly, I need to download some hitbox visualization mods or something to tell you ALL of his moves with armor.

^ no u don't bc there aren't any

idk how I feel about your tier list

On one hand, you have BBM not on Bottom tier

On the other, BDee and GnW are high tier while Pacdude isn't

Pac-Man gets counterplayed easily tbh, which may be a lot worse in top level play. But I never understood why people thought Bomberman is THAT bad. Game and Watch I feel like is an underrated character with a lot of favorable attributes with great disjoints, pretty good frame data, lots of active frames on his moves, great edge guarding abilities, fantastic mobility thanks to his high air decceleration making Empty Hopping very optimal for G&W in neutral and a great pressure ability. Bandana Dee is somewhat similar to G&W for being a lightweight that is hard to combo and hit while also having disjoints which makes it EVEN harder for him to actually get hit along with safe frame data which pretty much again makes him rather safe from the opponent using a commitable move. Bandana Dee also has disgustingly good priority, pretty good mobility, a great recovery, a great projectile, and he can play rushdown quite well along with being able to simply pressure the opponent to make a wrong decision which can land a kill.

Yea and Tson, tbh I was thinking of SSF2 bowser also having armor like Smash 4 Bowser along with many people telling me that he does have armor on his moves. But I do know that his recovery has a lot of invincibility frames though.

I updated my tier list:

S tier (Top):


A tier (High):


B tier (Upper Mid):


C tier (Mid):


D tier (Lower Mid):


E tier (Low):


is significantly lower. A lot of his moves are easy to beat out and he can struggle to kill. Many of his moves aren't amazing tbh.

has rose quite a lot, he has pretty good moves and range, though, his kills moves are a bit slow.

rose a tier higher, he does have pretty good tools and a recovery high super armor.

is much lower, I learned the MU much better. He doesn't have the best mobility and he can't really approach to well without his fireballs. His Fireballs are very useful and can cover options, but isn't necessarily hard to avoid.

rose a few spaces. He has some useful tools that help him in certain situations.

rose a tier higher. Her projectiles are pretty good and she has other really useful moves as well like Nair, Zair, and Up Tilt.

Probably will rise someday if I ever find a good bomberman player.

is higher than now since has an easier time landing hits than does.

I underestimated a little bit. He still does have long extended hurtbox on his moves and can have a trouble time killing, but they aren't always easy to attack the exended hurtboxes in time.

My opinions still change frequently so expect a new tier list from me soon

It has none...

When I finally downloaded some Hitbox Visualization Mods, it shows some invincibility frames.

Also, there is just... so much wrong with that Tier List...

Why is Bomberman Bottom 3 and literally only above f*** yoshi and below kirby, why is Jiggs bottom 3? Why is Bowser that low? I get that you don't think he is high tier, but almost Bottom 5 compared to DK who is literally Upper Mid, what are you smoking and can I have some? Why is wario so low? Why is Goku so low? Why is Isaac so High? Why is Lloyd so low? Why is Naruto so high? Why is G&W so low? Why is Sandbag considered top tier, he is Mid tier at best. And so much more...

Off the top of my head there may be one or two frames during startup, but absolutely not "a lot"

Also you don't need anything outside of the game to see invincibility lol, in-game a character flashes white if they are invincible

but in things like Bowser's recovery, its a lot harder to see since back when I did melee modding. I learned about Bowser's invincibility frames via Melee Modding and it is rather hard to specifically tell whether or not Bowser is in "Invincibility" state.

No. The weakness in his defensive-play isn't apparent at first, but once realized, Rushdown characters have all the abilites to weave, bait, and punish around his defensive options. Not to mention, he can't make quick gains in a match when they play a strict hit&run style; he can't keep up easily as they tack on damage. Especially with Metal Cavern now considered banned and bigger stages making up the stage-list like Dracula's Castle and Saturn Valley being counter-picks; there's less stage that favor Bowser not. And I don't know what you mean he has armor on a lot of moves. As TSON stated, he has only a couple, and they are very minimal in how he's an effective character and negligibly impact his ability to dictate neutral. You're way overstating strengths while neglecting weakness and potential losing MUs.

And that's just my issue I see with just one character in your tier. I don't know where you're getting your data or match-up experience from, but it feels too much that you look at the surface of many characters' designs and basic functions, judging their full potential from there on; not looking at the depths of character designs/abilities and what it becomes at higher levels of plays.

Yeah. . . .