@Manta: That's all very basic analysis of the character attributes and not what can happen in match:

Kirby already one of Fox's worst MU and badly beat him in v0.9b do to disjoints, priority, and free-juggles; and he still pretty good at it in Beta. Kirby Dash-Attack, Utilt, N. Inhale hitbox is janky, as the moment you touch the. So it's especially a super big grab hit-box at overranges even most swordsmen's attack. Kirby can 50/50 you with just SH-Inhale, and if you don't retreat, you get grabbed to suffer whatever mix-up the Kirby attempts. Or he can just Swallow and get a free grab-
Falco suffers many of the same weaknesses as Fox in the MU, but also has to deal with Copy-Attack Kirby camping with Lasers. Falco's SH Lasers are hard enough to hit a standing Kirby, and he can't hit him crouching at all with Lasers. But Kirby
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And no joke, as BoD said: Kirby doesn't have to have to approach even. He can sit with his back to the ledge and crouch. This forcing his opponent to approach, and doing so safely is not easy on Kirby. He can shield on reaction to any approach, or poke-out attempts to grab him. Fox has relable kill-power on Kirby, but lacks solid combo to kill to them, while Falco is the opposite, plus having slower approach options. It's not impossible, but you have to strongly mix-up your approach against a Kirby that camps because the situation is highly in his favor with all the risk being bared only by the Spacie; one wrong read leads to you being off-stage at best, Kirbicide at worst.

Since the last patch, Zelda can now approach with Double-Aerial with Fair more reliable and is much more difficult to challenge her moves in mix-up. Much like v0.9b, she's one of the best at punishing them for having high fast-speed, low weight; she only needs 1 to 2 conversion to take a stock from them. And both of them with their linea recoveries have to deal with Din's, which does 16% fresh and much more potent off-stage kill-move than before.

Mario vs. Fox could be played well in v0.9b, but always out of his favor due to inconsistencies (low priority + Bair erection, below average movement, Fox's insanely fast tech-animation, etc.). Those interferances are gone, plus Mario buffs, make it a more fair MU. Fox doesn't

Falcon still has Uthrow in the his Spacie punish-game, and Perfect-Pivot Jabs in his neutral now. His punish game is strong and his ability to confirm into punishes are easier. He has the more exploitable recoveries, but can punish harder than they can punish them. Also, repeating from Mario MU, Fox's Neutral was significantly.

Samus still has a pretty good punish game and ability to confirm situations of off-stage opponents. She Chain-Dthrow them across stage to Fthrow/Utilt/Nair at 50% (Fox) 60% (Falco). Plus, projectile having no priority at the moment makes it easier for her to drop Bombs to intimedate approaching now that's she's much safer. And her ability to poke with Ftilt anti-air nearly any short-hop approach with that make it more difficult to get into her space. I think she would fair well as the ability is their.

Link's space control with his item-bombs are strong as hell. And he has a Marth-like juggle-game on Spacies with a Falcon-like kill-moves. Much like Zelda, his lacking speed balanced by powerful punishes, but his space control is better than hers on top of that. And he has multiple ways to snipe them when they are off-stage. Falco maybe harder to deal with overall because of lasers, but versus Fox isn't that bad.

Mobilty isn't eveything. Some characters have the ability to make-up for lower speed through punish-game and tech, which are two of the three biggest things I think the majority of players overlook. Just because these things aren't free on a character, doesn't make the character lesser.

Fox DEMOLISHES Kirby. Kirby struggles against rushdown characters (except for Falcon lol). Fox is extremely and has very good tools that Kirby has a hard time dealing with such as Nair, Shine, and other moves. I don't even think Kirby's duck can save him from the MU.

Yea. Also kirby has no disjoints. Kirby dies to fox's s*** early which is never good. Fox can go for frametraps on kirby along with Kirby not being able to secure stocks onto fox and the fact that Fox has one of the best Get-off me moves in the entire game if kirby were to win in neutral.

Addressing the second comment (if i knew how to quote i would)
“Jigglypuff similar to Kirby has linear range but with an even worse ground game which causes her to have to be in the air at all times. And she gets thrown like a ping pong ball all the time, Jigglypuff also requires committing to her moves like A LOT which is not good for a character as light as her. And that pretty much creates inconsistency which is not good when a character wants to do well in a tournament. But the fact that she has better options in neutral compared to kirby does place her a spot higher.”

“Jigglypuff similar to Kirby has linear range but with an even worse ground game which causes her to have to be in the air at all times”
I find it hypocritical of you to say that and at the same time put peach in b tier, peach has arguably a worse ground game and even if she didn't being in the air all the time is not a bad thing when you have 6 jumps. Her ground game isn't even that bad, jab is a good get away from me tool, she has arguably one of the best grabs in the game, ftilt and dash attack are fast and can start/ extend combos and uptilt combos into rest. Just because you're not playing neutral on the ground doesn't mean her ground game is bad enough to make her e tier. Being forced into the air isn't a bad thing all the time, if your kit is based around the air.

“And she gets thrown like a ping pong ball all the time,”
Now i'm confused about what you're talking about, her airspeed lets her get out combos, and she's a floaty. Falco, fox, dk, and bowser all get comboed way harder and you put them in the top tiers. I would like to know how you think that the lightest and smallest character in the game is combo food.


“Jigglypuff also requires committing to her moves like A LOT which is not good for a character as light as her.”
Are you just trying to sound like an idiot? All her aerials are fast as s***, and endlag isn't a problem at all, even if you disregard the fact that you can fast fall to cancel all your aerials, none of her aerials aside from nair have substantial ending lag. Nair lingers, yes but its hitbox is out the whole time, it's not committing when you can just fade back and fast fall to get out of the move without being punished. The only moves you would have to commit to would be her specials and in that case, why are you using specials in the first place??? All her aerials are safe on shield with proper spacing, and are really f*** fast, where did you get this idea that jigs has to commit to anything at all??

“And that pretty much creates inconsistency which is not good when a character wants to do well in a tournament”
f*** off.





Addressing the second comment
“However Jigglypuff still has issues properly and safely approaching the opponent before she can even utilize her combo setups. The Reason why Melee Jigglypuff used to be so high was due to the fact that she had one broken tool that could be used to space and zone out the characters, along with the properties of Melee benefiting Jigglypuff very much. But in SSF2, she has issues in neutral where basically she'll be dead by the time she lands a rest. Also the fact that she can still get killed when she lands a rest on the opponent if the opponent doesn't get star KO-ed is another thing just to note. But her inconsistency is kind of an issue.”

“However Jigglypuff still has issues properly and safely approaching the opponent before she can even utilize her combo setups.”
Bair, fair and nair, and dair are the most safe approach options in the game, and outrange a lot of characters, i would even go so far as to argue that they are the best non sword/projectile based approach options in the game. There all safe on shield so please tell me how there not safe approach options?

“she has issues in neutral where basically she'll be dead by the time she lands a rest”
If you're playing jigglypuff and your main goal is to land a rest, your playing her wrong. She has heavy like damage output with her weakest aerial doing 11%. F throw is an insanely strong kill throw, dair combos into up smash and so does falling up air, she has jablok combos, and is basically constantly getting tech chases because her aerials put you into tumble at like 30%, which means reads for days. You can't shield her approaches, because A) there safe and b) you have the threat of pound which breaks shields.

“Also the fact that she can still get killed when she lands a rest on the opponent if the opponent doesn't get star KO-ed “
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuKzt7p-MnM

“But her inconsistency is kind of an issue.”
f*** off.

1st of all, that was a long time ago. You do realize that in my second tier list I placed her much higher.

And being thrown like a ping pong ball doesn't mean she gets comboed, that just means she can get constantly thrown out of the stage.

Also regarding peach, peach has a projectile for at least camping so she can bait out an approach and such while jigglypuff has a lot more issues dealing with projectiles.

Even with a couple of decent moves on the ground, she still has one of the slowest dash speeds in the game which she needs to be in the air in order for her to use her ground tools generally and being in the air.

I guess you kind of know what you are saying regarding her playstyle. However in certain matchups regarding her approach she can't really go inside most characters with disjoints like marth since they can cut right through her aerials with their sword. And she can be camped out.

Inconsistency can technically be an issue given a tournament environment since that just means she can't always consistently win every match meaning that running into a swordfighter is a lot more likely in a tournament environment.

So please stop acting overly salty as well, it is kind of making you look a lot worse.

No, he doesn't demolish Kirby. Fox is just the easier character fundamentally, but that does not mean the MU is auto-easy for Fox. Fox has kill moves and the easier time getting in, but Kirby has a silly simple punish game on Fox that can make him look helpless in the MU. As badly as Fox can "demolish" Kirby, Kirby can "demolish" Fox. Just a volatile MU, but looks better for Fox on paper.

Right out the gate i would like to apolgize for two things, the first being the agressive tone i had throughout the first post. It came off really dick-ish and it truly wasnt my intent. and the second being that i didnt see your second tierlist, at the time i had not finished reading the whole thread and ignorantly decided to start writing.
its really late at night and i would right out another essay but i dont have time cause i have finals tommarow, but i wanted to write something out today so ill just post my notes and give a fallowup tomorrow.
"And being thrown like a ping pong ball doesn't mean she gets comboed, that just means she can get constantly thrown out of the stage."

-She has the best recovery in the game, she can duck under a ridiculous number of grabs. Making it hard to throw her offstage in the first place.
-doesn't matter because she doesn't get punished off stage due to her recovery being so good.
- its disadvantageous to put jigs off stage instead of comboing her on stage.

"Also regarding peach, peach has a projectile for at least camping so she can bait out an approach and such while jigglypuff has a lot more issues dealing with projectiles."
-fair point.
-jigs can use aerials to bait approaches.
"Even with a couple of decent moves on the ground, she still has one of the slowest dash speeds in the game which she needs to be in the air in order for her to use her ground tools generally and being in the air."

-as i said its not a bad thing to be in the air.
-the only ground tool you would want to use in the air is grab which you can combo into from a nair/fair.
-reiterate that this character is built around being in the air and is therefore not hurt by her being forced in the air,
-she has combos for days in the air.
-ask why being in the air is a bad thing.

"I guess you kind of know what you are saying regarding her playstyle. However in certain matchups regarding her approach she can't really go inside most characters with disjoints like marth since they can cut right through her aerials with their sword. And she can be camped out."

-state that it's a good point, but losing two three of the top tiers doesnt mean shes bottom c tier, and the fact that marth is the only really unwinnable matchup, lloyd and mk are manageable.
-alot of the time if you play the neutral right you won't need to approach, and how its only really marth who beats her.
- if you focus the game on punishes and bait them into approaching it's a much more doable matchup
*follow up paragraph because this point is important
-explain the matchup between mk and lloyd to show that if you focus the game on punishes it becomes more doable, more close to a 60-50 then anything else.

"Inconsistency can technically be an issue given a tournament environment since that just means she can't always consistently win every match meaning that running into a swordfighter is a lot more likely in a tournament environment."

-Thats fair, but there's a difference between having a few bad matchups, and being inconsistent.
-give examples of a character that is inconsistent due to matchups like ike from brawl and then go on to give an example of a character that purely has a few bad matchups, like melee samus

Thanks for a better tone though. But other characters with inconsistency in tournaments because of matchups are characters like Villager (Depends on Pools), SSB4 Ness (He is dropping on the tier list so much so where a lot of top players only believe hes mid to mid-high tier), etc. Inconsistency also comes in the form of high risk high reward meaning theres a more drastic win:lose ratio and the possibility of getting out early in a tournament. Baiting out approaches for Jigglypuff can serve as a viable option, but the opponent can have several options covering what jigglypuff may do, and also the lack of disjoint is still an issue since again, a character with remotely any disjoint can just rush when jigglypuff uses an aerial and beat jigglypuff to it. And trust me, its not just swordfighters that have disjoints. 2/3rd of the cast have some sort of decent disjoint that can probably cover jigglypuff's options.

Jigglypuff's Recovery Isn't the best tbh. Since she doesn't have any other recovery option outside of jump and rising aerial pound, she can just get hit out of it multiple times from projectile camping, etc. It certainly is a decent recovery, but far from the best *cough cough* MK *cough cough*. MK's playstyle is also very "Punishy" but the fact that he has disjointed range while Jigglypuff doesn't means that he can get away with more stuff, hes also really hard to edge guard properly which is something Jigglypuff excells at and one punish can secure a stock on jigglypuff. Not to mention that Meta Knight has safe frame data. And Lloyd's dependency on juggling can probably do him a favor when jigglypuff is always in the air. And his disjoints mean that his options will cover more than Jigglypuff's and he'll cover the stage better. Also not to mention that lloyd has a really good projectile that can be used to camp out jigglypuff and even juke out his/her recovery.

Being in the air constantly can also be a flaw mainly due to predictability. They will expect you to either throw out an aerial, or to do a retreating aerial. And certain MUs can cover both options.

Given that this is SSF2, theres a lot of combo confirms that not even jigglypuff can get out of since SSF2 is so combo based, that means that one win in neutral can give jigglypuff a substantial amount of percent like 50-60% depending on the character and they can net a kill at that percent since it oddly enough is basically kill percent. And not to mention that a lot of characters have viable kill throws so if the opponent plays smart they can bait out an attack then pivot grab jigglypuff for an early kill.

And Jigglypuff has more than a couple of bad matchups (Though some can be "do-able" but thats the same thing as calling any not 70-30 mu"). Her bad matchups are Marth (Duh), MK (Reasons Explained), Bandana Dee (Similar to MK's reason, but jesus that priority), Lloyd (Reasons Explained), Link (Swordfighter and a camper, no other reasons needed), Mega Man (The King of Camping, also he has a consistent a** kill throw and has weird armor on his recovery and his crash bomber can make jigglypuff shield which is of course always bad), the Spacies (Matchup will be similar to that of Melee's, don't really need to explain), ZSS (She has a lot of confirms regardless of weight and can consistently kill jigglypuff along with possessing a dangerous projectile), Bomberman (He can wall out jigglypuff with his stage control making it much harder to approach, G&W (He has lots of disjoints in his moves, and hes one of the best characters in terms of catching landings thanks to N-air and F-air can basically be used to kill jigglypuff at rather low percents which is best optimized offstage and since its disjointed that means that it'll beat out jigglypuff's aerials), Ichigo (Hes a sword fighter, and he has some odd invincibility frames and some other stuff I probably forgot, I don't play ichigo), Isaac (Also a swordfighter, has a ton of active frames on moves such as down-tilt and can zone jigglypuff out with ease, hes probably her 2nd worst matchup), and of course some others I probably forgot.

One more thing to note, on my 3rd unreleased tier list. Jigglypuff was actually placed higher to around the Top of C tier.

for those wondering about my "3rd unreleased tier list" this is my 3rd one for those interested.

His neutral also relies on usage of his aerials and DK's aerials are pretty good.He has pretty decent mobility which helps him with landing those attacks.His nair and bair are good approach options. Well, I have to agree with you that DK still kinda has to rely on baiting his foes towards him in order to land those attacks but I personally try to get close to my foes. Anyways, Nair is pretty fast and can follow up many attacks especially grab(and DK can punish hard from a grab) ,it good to use for pressure when accompanied by his tilts. I would use tilts(especially down tilt) to stop people from dashing or shield poke. As for everything else, yeah I agree that he is combo food and has a hard time dealing with projectiles.

Generally I'd think that donkey kong would have to rely on fishing for grabs since anyone with any disjoints or projectiles (like 2/3rd of the cast) can beat out his aerials. And given how many characters have projectiles... yea.

That's what power shielding or just shielding and jumping is for. I have to get close to them first and then use his aerials combined with tilts.

But power shielding has very specific timing making it hard to perform consistently, and jumping means that a character with a disjointed attack can simply just beat out his aerials. Since similar to jigglypuff he pretty much gets destroyed by campers and characters with disjointed range.

That's where stage picking comes into play. DK doesn't give a crap about Link on Battlefield because he commands the whole bottom area with ease (dem long arms) and Link's projectile game isn't optimally suited for the platform height/configuration, making it feel VERY cramped. Same would go for most other zoning characters against DK on that stage. But Smashville/FD/Tower of Salvation work against DK, offering a large base platform and little ways to control such huge space

Simple, just strike all versions of BF.