I mean sure if that is what you think.

alright bois, after a whole day of grinding sh!t and all, I have come up with this tier list which I think is the best.

file was 257kb and max is 256. here's the imgur link: https://imgur.com/a/jnIUq

Seems pretty reasonable. The only questions I have are what makes Marth 3rd and why tf Sora is so low considering his long recovery and solid combo/KO game?

No offence, but I wouldn't trust a tier list made by one person in one day. Is this tier list based on just one days work or from months of past experience playing online and in tournaments and you compiled it in one day?

My tier list.

How the hell is Pit low tier?

There are... so many issues with your tier list...

Here are a few:

Pit Being Almost Bottom 5/Low Tier: Just... why?

Wario Being Bottom 5: There are worse characters out there and Wario has a lot of Waft confirms along with having a couple of people playing him that are relatively notable like Noxxious or Invalid_

Pac-Man Not Being Bottom 5: Pac-Man has a terrible matchup spread along with having plenty of unwinnable matchups. Pac-Man has poor range, poor normals, a gimpable recovery, lackluster kill options, his best moves can be used against him, his grab can get powershielded believe it or not (No Pac doesn't grab himself tho but the grab gets ignored), and he has a relatively unrewarding combo game outside of a few up-air strings at low percents and maybe like a n-air combo or two at best which significantly hurts Pac-Man's damage output. When Pac-Man is rushed down, he comes off as a very predictable character as he has to rely on N-Air constantly for landing or for 90% of non-trapping options. Pac-Man will also charge fruits and try to use them to setup traps along with hydrants but constantly chasing him will prevent Pac-Man from doing so making him quite easy to beat if you know the matchup, especially in top level play. Switch Pac-Man with Wario at least.

Lloyd being better than Ichigo: Lloyd's recovery issues renders him as an inconsistent character at times making him choke at certain points. Ichigo's superior range, speed (literally the 7th fastest in the game), edge guarding, and raw power and punish game just makes him a bit better of a character.

Ness being in B+: While sure Ness does have a psuedo-infinite kinda on some characters (Fox, DK, some taller characters), but it isn't enough to make him THAT high. Ness literally cannot land, a lot of his disjointed moves are super laggy and punishable with moves like F-Air not connecting properly. Ness has a gimpable recovery and he has to rely on Down-B as well for horizontal recovery which can end up making his recovery predictable and gimpable. Ness loses a lot of matchups above him and he simply just isn't all that good.

Bomberman being in B tier: OriginalJoey has very much proven that Bomberman can do things that a Bombercan. Bomberman has a decent chaingrab ability, a REALLY good grab game, very good mobility, a fantastic pressure game, very good kill power, and some of the best stage control in the game. Also Bomberman gets a lot of time to setup his bombs throughout the stage if the opponent dies (Especially during the Star KO animation) and when Bomberman Dies and gets invincibility for a while. Using Side-B with a P-Bomb is deadly and it can lead to some nasty edge guards. Bomberman is simply an underrated character, definently put him in B+.

Jigglypuff being bottom 5 and being lower than Kirby: While yea... Jigglypuff does have bad range, but so does Kirby. Jigglypuff has a lot of combos that lead into rest, a suprisingly good grab game with a fantastic kill throw, she has one of the best edge guarding games in SSF2, fantastic air mobility which is something Kirby lacks, a superior neutral to Kirby, and she can always pressure the opponent at all times. Kirby just shouldn't be above jigglypuff due to his matchups being even worse than Puff's and his inferior neutral and mobility which only gets compensated by a slightly better recovery and a really good b-air and down-throw and I guess Neutral-B. At least put Puff above Kirby lol.

These are just some of my complaints, I have more but I just want to hear your insight on these placements so far Strife.

Pit however is a swordfighter, so his range is fine + his range is disjointed anyways. Pit still has Down-Throw to Up-Air which allows for him to juggle the opponent and to kill the opponent at a moderatly decent percent. Pit's projectile may deal low damage/knockback, but it is meant to snipe the opponent which is a lot more practical than it sounds because then you can just get constant free percent. And bad frame data like what moves? Pit's frame data isn't too bad from what i've seen as far as swordfighters go. Side-B is a devastating move for punishes (while it wasn't as good as 1.0.2) however it can still be used as a decent kill move so its a decent punish anyways and it is quick enough for certain openings, oh yea and it can help with Pit deal with projectiles. Pit's damage output relies more on edge guarding since Pit is designed as a character to always have the opponent offstage or on the ledge, in fact that was how he was designed in Brawl and especially Smash 4. Pit uses his disjointed aerials and multiple jumps for a fence of pain while using his arrows for constantly snipe the opponent. The disjoints Pits have are heavily desirable in the current meta and it helps with Pit to deal with rushdowns.

I get the Wario argument about his lack of neutral, but hes designed to be more of a character that needs to get in once (which may be hard) but then he can practically kill you within 1 or 2 neutrals depending on whether or not he has waft. Wario has a lot of guaranteed waft combos and his insane punish game makes him always threatening and he can constantly pressure the opponent. He also has a fantastic ledge trap with Neutral-B which also serves as one of the best command grabs in the game and he can mix between his still fast air speed with his pretty good crawling animation to constantly mix up movement as a form of pressure. Wario also has a great recovery which is something Sandbag lacks so he practically is Sandbag with a slightly less extreme punish game/kill power and a much better recovery.

I mean sure, Kyoz does exist. However most of his prominent results happened when people stopped learning the matchup. Kyoz's Pac-Man is always about spewing the unexpected, once the community gets a grip on all of Pac-Man's technique, Pac-Man will practically become irrelevant unless I manage to get good results or something + Kyoz is starting to pickup ZSS so we might see less Pac-Man representation in the future. Pac-Man DOES NOT win against Captain Falcon. Captain Falcon can just rushdown Pac-Man before he can setup and Captain Falcon can greatly punish Pac-Man while Pac-Man has to rely on hydrant ledge traps which can be avoided pretty easily even as captain falcon. Pac-Man never gets the time to setup or do really anything which means that he will have to use his worser options making him lose the matchup pretty greatly. Pac-Man loses to a ton of matchups with his only remotely winning matchup being Luffy and maybe Luigi with both matchups being debated whether or not Pac-Man actually wins those matchups. Pac-Man's dependence on setting up is what hurts him the most as most high/top level players will almost never give Pac-Man time to setup making Pac-Man sometimes even have to play on the offense just so he can setup and given Pac-Man's poor normals and general terrible offensive game along with below average mobility, it is quite hard in general and it contributes to Pac-Man having an underwhelming neutral with relatively low reward outside of stage control and a little bit more setup time.

Won't talk much about Ichigo vs Lloyd but I value tools more than results, results are more of an icing on the cake hence is why I place Pac-Man as low as bottom 3 despite Kyoz existing.

While sure, ness's chaingrab does work on some meta-relevant characters. But it still doesn't work on characters like Falco, Meta Knight, TAILS, Pikachu, Lloyd, and others. But Ness's chaingrab only works at specific percents with lower percents being a little harder to consistently chaingrab + iirc infinites are banned to execute and it probably will be in the future. Ness's ranged moves are laggy and aren't very useful in neutral so I don't see how Ness's neutral actually improved tbh. Ness relies too much on his niche chaingrab for really anything and I feel like it isn't enough to make him THIS high in B+ even if it works on a couple of Meta-Relevant characters, I mean counterpicks exists for a reason.

Bomberman's offstage game isn't all that bad if you know how to use side-b and edge guard with bombs. Throwing a P-Bomb offstage is devastating and it can lead to a kill as early as 70-80. And it is as practical as it sounds, try looking at what OriginalJoey does during his matches lol. Bomberman does take a bit of damage if he loses neutral because of his big head, but Bomberman can dish out just as much damage if not more. Bomberman has extremely good kill power including a grab game that leads to his kill confirms. Bomberman still has moves like B-Air in neutral which are relatively useful tools in neutral combined with Bomberman being actually fast which allows for his neutral to not be as bad as you think. Bomberman's range is definenetly one of his shortcomings, but I guess he has bombs for a reason and his bombs pretty much limits the opponent's movement and it allows for him to hit the opponent wherever he goes. Combined with Bomberman's speed, he can plant bombs everywhere around the stage without a sweat.

Jigglypuff's other aerials are still pretty reliable, but it is just that B-Air is her best option. Her Air Speed is still vastly superior to that of Kirby, her kill throw is much better and the fact that she can get guaranteed stuff for rest allows for her to be a ticking time bomb that can severly demolish. Kirby has a much worse neutral compared to jigglypuff due to Kirby's inferior speed which makes it harder for Kirby to use his great normals fully (Melee Kirby has suprisingly good/okay normals but the problem is his mobility which prevents his tools from actually being fully used which is a fundamental issue Kirby has throughout his smash career outside of 64). Jigglypuff has better mobility to make better use of her tools and the fact that she can kill easier and the fact that she DOES NOT HAVE TO DEPEND ON PORT makes her a bit better of a choice in tournament play.

Welp, I'm terrible with tier list stuff but here it goes.

I think that Tails had some HUGE BUFFS from an A rank in 9B to an A rank in Beta. XD. But Tails has been really good in tournaments lately and he has been through some improvements.

Falco is really good but he has a bad recovery and can be gimped (like Fox's recovery) but his combos are MIND-BLOWING. Deserves his spot on the tier list.

Samus is looking pretty good so far as Strat2G is SUPER GOOD with that Bounty Hunter.

The last one:

PAC-MAN









So Pac-Man is a mixed one. He has very good setups with hydrant and fruit and Kyoz is really good with him. I want PAC-MAN to be at least A- rather than B-

Well Tails is considered by everyone to be the best in the game. Most of his strengths and normals are pretty overwhelming overall, don't need to explain much about tails.

Falco is definently solid and yea you are right about Falco's recovery hampering him down while he has a great punish/pressure game with a great edge guarding game overall.

Strat2G isn't very prominent so far in the current Meta and his Samus is pretty overrated imo. He just gets carried by her.

Pac-Man is where you are completely wrong however. He actually deserves to be lower than B-, in fact he is among one of the worst characters in the game currently (4th worst in my opinion) despite having Kyoz. Pac-Man has no range on most of his moves, his best tools can be used against him, he can't reliable kill, he loses to swordfighters badly, Pac-Man has an easily gimpable and stealable recovery, Pac-Man has below average damage output due to his lackluster combo game, Pac-Man's grab game sucks and more. Also some of his best techniques got removed recently making him less and less useful.

Kirby is ridiculous in beta, and I think he (she? It?) is easily one of the most underrated characters in beta. I think what is really hurting him is the current metagame, with disjoint and projectile characters being used the most. He does have a great disjointed b-air to help though. Also, he's somewhat lacking in the results department. on the good side, he has a great combo game and some insane kill power. I mean, aerial hammer kills most characters at the ledge at 70%! He/she/it has some amazing potential.

Kirby's a guy

N yeah you ain't wrong fam. I wish he had some nice Dair confirms like he does in sm4sh. I love that move

Kirby is definitely not underrated in higher levels of play. He literally cannot trade with any disjointed characters as he always lose to them which is even worse given how easy he is to KO. And his below average mobility really hinders Kirby's overall neutral game. Kirby's placement on the second tier list is probably a couple spots too high but it's somewhat reasonable.

Some of the true underrated characters are Bandana Dee (His evasive game is great given his prominent disjoints + air decelleration and small hurtbox combination and contrary to popular belief he actually does have kill confirms in the form of D-Air -> Up-Smash or B-Air), and maybe Black Mage now (I no longer find him to be Bottom 10. He actually has some dumb frame data to the point where he even has useful Frame 1 moves in neutral and he actually has really dumb active frames on a lot of his moves along with Black Mage of course having disjoints making him at least more prominent in the metagame than most characters below him along with having a better advantage state than Pit.).

people saying pit has range in 2018 LUL