Smash Flash Back Room Official Beta Tier List (1.0.2)
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Corvid Crow
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| | | | NyxTheShield wrote: | | | | Corvid Crow wrote: MM is literally the best character in terms of pure zoning capabilities, sure hes slow but it doesn't matter when he can consistently win neutral and make it super hard for the opponent to get out of disadvantage due to his stage control, in other words you really cant be out-camped by another character while playing MM. I feel like a lot of MM players are underrating just how good his stage presence is as a whole, even without his three special moves for spacing and traps he has great aerials and good damage racking alongside really really good kill moves. MM players also underrate his close up game, nair is a fast and decent get off me option, pellets at close range are fast and combo into lots of things and his disjointed jab is great. Also the thing with MM's up b is that, not only does it have heavy armor, but the player can cancel it with any aerial. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT This pretty much means MM can recover in most situations, and if he feels threatened he can just throw out a nair to avoid any punishment. Add this all to a character who's rather heavy and you have an annoying, zoning character who isn't afraid to get up close, has a great punish game, great kill options and kill setups and lives forever. He rightfully deserves his placing in that tier. | | | | |
I wholeheartly disagree with this statement, I dont think megaman has the best neutral as you are making it to be and his stage control isnt as good as you are making it be. | | | | |
I never said he has the best neutral, i said he has the best zoning game, and honestly this community really doesnt understand how important stage control really is and with that many tools in his disposal, MM has a really, really good time covering options and forcing people into awful positions.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:08 am |
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Lv. 1 CPU
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 6:10 am Posts: 131
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Damn Lv. 1 CPU back at it again maining low/bottom tiers
im sure that wario will drop when this tier list gets improved
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:25 am |
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NyxTheShield
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:30 am Posts: 20 Country:
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| | | | Corvid Crow wrote: | | | | NyxTheShield wrote: | | | | Corvid Crow wrote: MM is literally the best character in terms of pure zoning capabilities, sure hes slow but it doesn't matter when he can consistently win neutral and make it super hard for the opponent to get out of disadvantage due to his stage control, in other words you really cant be out-camped by another character while playing MM. I feel like a lot of MM players are underrating just how good his stage presence is as a whole, even without his three special moves for spacing and traps he has great aerials and good damage racking alongside really really good kill moves. MM players also underrate his close up game, nair is a fast and decent get off me option, pellets at close range are fast and combo into lots of things and his disjointed jab is great. Also the thing with MM's up b is that, not only does it have heavy armor, but the player can cancel it with any aerial. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT This pretty much means MM can recover in most situations, and if he feels threatened he can just throw out a nair to avoid any punishment. Add this all to a character who's rather heavy and you have an annoying, zoning character who isn't afraid to get up close, has a great punish game, great kill options and kill setups and lives forever. He rightfully deserves his placing in that tier. | | | | |
I wholeheartly disagree with this statement, I dont think megaman has the best neutral as you are making it to be and his stage control isnt as good as you are making it be. | | | | |
I never said he has the best neutral, i said he has the best zoning game, and honestly this community really doesnt understand how important stage control really is and with that many tools in his disposal, MM has a really, really good time covering options and forcing people into awful positions. | | | | |
I disagree and I fail to see how he has the best zoning tools in the game. In fact, Thats compeltely false, you cant be good at zoning AND one of the slowest characters in the game at the same time. You cant have stage controls being that slow. A decent Fox can just, literally, laser camp you and evade all of your projectile game.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:46 am |
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Jammy
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I think the list we've come up with represents the current meta pretty well, and while you might disagree with a couple or even several placements, overall a lot of people agree with the general gist of it, which is the important thing imo - nobody agrees with every single placement on ANY tier list, even one as old and small as melees. even I disagree with a bunch of the placings on the list, and my personal tier list would look different to this one - however, I think this is the fairest representation of the current meta, as many differing opinions went into it, giving us a list made up of several different perspectives. I can guarantee that if we put out your personal tier list as the official one, there would be people trashing it just as hard as you're trashing this one now - think bout that.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:04 am |
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Gudako's Insanity
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We shouldn't even make any Tier Lists official anyway. Tier Lists come from Winrates, MUs and the meta, not that many tournaments have been held for this game too.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:54 am |
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NA
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:46 pm Posts: 173 Country:
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Could the list of each contributing BR member also include who those players primarily play as?
I intensely disagree with Bomberman's placement, and I'd like to see if any contributing BR members have put in substantial play time with him.
The hitbox on bombs and the versatility on bomb kick is seriously underrated. I don't see how him gaining that hit box at the expense of blast radius (rightly so) takes him from nearly A-tier in v0.9b to bottom of the cast. Especially if, as has been noted, stage control is key in the current meta. The artificial extension of his neutral by pressing B is spectacular and not a simple thing to interrupt given his great ground/aerial speed/control.
And Sheik should certainly be higher; I'd like to see the BR opinion for her. The Fair "nerf" is hardly something of concern when Bouncing Fish covers her 2 biggest weaknesses: recovery and landing/escaping juggles. As playridise mentioned, she's one of the safest characters in the cast with a wicked grab game, combo game, and edge guard. She was highly rated in v0.9b and has only improved with stronger MUs against those that surround her.
There are a couple wonky placements in high tier, but I'm glad to see Fox as #2. He may have more results, but that's particularly in part to him having a disproportionately larger player base in tournament play, thus increasing his odds of winning a tourney not due to character performance, but sheer volume of capable entrants. His kit is well explored and defined, but so are his weaknesses.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:01 am |
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KingPawn
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There was actually a weird way we did this, so I won't explain everything but I will say our methodology did leave some characters higher or lower than they actually should've been. In this case, it put MM higher than most people thought, Sheik lower(IMO), but overall there weren't too many discrepencies when making this. You guys honestly shouldn't look at the exact placings of each character (OMG PUFF AT 27!!!!), but instead look at the tiers that they're in. Each character's specific placing was very hard to get a general consensus on and therefore the characters in each tier can basically be interchangeable.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:12 am |
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NA
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:46 pm Posts: 173 Country:
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Thank you for that; I do share that sentiment that there is a large portion of the cast that basically all sits in the same place, and tier lists are far more condensed than in v0.9b. BUT, I am looking at the tier that Bomberman is placed in... and I have a gripe with that
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:15 am |
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TSF.Strife
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I can sort that for you at some point
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:28 am |
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NA
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:36 am |
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Godreaper
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And the next patch will mess this all up. Most of these bastards are this high due to having OP Projectile/Zoning game with already being good with close combat.
The list is alright. I still think any space animal is better than Goku. But this is a tier list, which is suppose to show case the OVERALL better character. So I'm cool with it. I don't like how low falcon is (Seeing how easily he can kill here) , but I do get he doesn't have a projectile so. That kinda screws him up with this projectile/zoning meta we have right now.
Good work BR.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:58 am |
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Jan_Solo
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Y'all forgot B tier
Nice work BR people, good luck making another tier in short notice, unfortunately
RIP 1.0.2 tier list cause of death: patch 1.0.3
In all seriousness, the tier list is actually decent tbh, I'd argue some could go up or down a tier, but what do I know? I can't play competitively... stupid lag clause
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:01 am |
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Jaxler
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While I understand Bowser's placement due to his lack of recent results, I find it really interesting that DK is placed above Bowser (I understand that the tiers this time are pretty compacted this time around, but its interesting nonetheless). While DK's range and mobility are certainly great, I think Bowser's better out of shield game, neutral tools such as neutral b (matchup dependant) and crawl fadebacks, and raw kill power make Bowser more capable (not perfectly, ofc) of handling several meta-relevant matchups that DK struggles with, such as Falco, floaties (minus samus), and MK.
I know i don't quite have the results yet to back it up, but this is just my perspective from what I've seen from DKs and my own experience playing bowser. Feel free to debate me.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:06 am |
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MedK
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| | | | TSF.Strife wrote: | | | | Gregory Goku wrote: I'm sorry (not so sorry) to say, but this tier list is f***ing garbage. Goku at 1st (higher than Fox) with all the problems he has. KK got nerfed to hell and his poor range got rekt. F-Air sour spot is weaker and hey, he got a chaingrab, but that's the only new thing he has. He lost his Up-B and Kamehameha can't be reversed in the ground. MK high as heck with all the nerfs he got. His Smash Attacks are almost useless, while dash attack, overall speed and jump height is significantly worse. Lloyd got nerfed to heck; Sonic Thrust can't be used in the air and still doesn't kill. Tempest sucks as recovery, leaves him helpless and when it connects, doesn't land most of the hits. I'm looking at Ichigo and all he has is spam. Spam can be countered with skill an-- Do I need to say more? Pit is the same as Ichigo. Link got nerfed to hell, can't spam anymore, speed sucks, recovery too, bombs can now be dropped by getting hit for some reason. Easily low tier. Why is Mario higher than Luigi? Why is Puff so low? She got a lot of options to Rest, which kills from 20% to 40%. Jab to Rest. All aerials to rest. Some throws to Rest. Umm... Guys? Why is PAC-MAN so low? He's got nice techs and projectiles and is very balanced. Luffy could be higher. Why did Sonic get even lower? He got a lot of buffs, a meteor smash, a KO throw, more range and an angle-able recovery. Why is Chibi lower than before? Do I need to say anything? May I call Skylar? WHY IS SANDBAG SO LOW? THAT'S PLAIN WRONG! HE HAS A LOT OF GOOD MATCHUPS, SOME VERY NICE COMBOS AND IS THE FASTEST CHAR ON GROUN-- I could continue about Sandbag specifically for the rest of the day, but I don't have the time. BM should be lower. Why is Naruto bottom three? Kirby placement is all wrong.
Conclusion: Delet this while it's still time | | | | |
Aight, smear aside, lemme tell you this straight. - Literally got straight buffs, still has an amazing recovery with float and teleport, can trigger Kaioken off his side-b which is actually stupid lol, he has a chaingrab and any nerfs that he did get have meant absolute piss all because he's mostly just received straight buffs in the transition from 9b to Beta - You're really overlooking the good stuff here. 0-death Rufio combos are possible with the new shuttle loop, his recovery pretty much got straight buffed with the teleport, he has a throw that sets up into his DSmash free and he's received lots of other buffs that offset the minimal nerfs he received. - Sonic Thrust is kinda situational and Tempest shouldn't be your main recovery option now that Rising Falcon exists and restores your jump. Lloyd has a pretty good combo game, can still kill pretty well and still has a really good neutral. The nerfs reworked him, but he's still a really damn good character. - Ichigo got a massive speed buff, which makes his only flaw his slightly poor recovery and slow kill moves. He's now genuinely a really scary character to deal with as so many of his quick moves have massive range and good combo ability. Ichigo can't be rushed down as easily anymore. - Arrows give him a super threatening offstage and neutral game. His combo ability is good and he kills a lot earlier than he probably should because lol up air. You should be very afraid when fighting against Pit because he's a damn good character. - Luigi's traction and slow speed make his neutral a lot worse than Mario's, and whilst his close range punish game is incredible, Mario just finds most foes a lot easier to deal with in terms of actually getting in, because the dash speed buff, whereas Luigi has to really take risks to approach sometimes. - She's got good setups yes, however, in a metagame where swordsmen and characters with long range and good kill power reign, Puff really fails. She dies super early and some of the higher tier matchups are just super rough. - A character who relies heavily on gimmicks. This means that as soon as you know how to counterplay his gimmicks, the matchup instantly goes into your favour. Pacman is only really doing so well because he has a dedicated top player (Kyoz) maining him. - Nope, he's fine where he is. You can be throwing out constant hitboxes against this character and be completely safe for him because he has to overcommit hard whenever he takes an action. - Range issues, something that's very prominent in this meta, his combo game took a hit because he's too fast for his own good, and there were some startup and endlag increases on moves that should have been key parts of his kit, leave Sonic to just be an underwhelming character. - Chibi got 9b Sora'd hard. He has a great neutral because of the projectile changes, but Chibis best kill moves were nerfed to have literally no power to them so he either has to land a cheeky dair or land a smart smash attack in order to kill, which can be really difficult. - The unconventional nature and general slow speed the character possesses leaves the character to have a horrendous neutral with an exceptional punish game. Sandbag relies on characters getting close so he can heftily punish them, but only a couple of charaecters actually need to get close to do damage and the rest of the cast can just play out of Sandbag's effective range. Also, his recovery leaves him at a disadvantage if he's forced to up-b as he's in hitstun so could accidentally seal his own fate by being edgeguarded after the explosion, or from the fact he'll die if he uses his Up-B past a certain %. - Still is maintaining a presence thanks to Corvid and Drarky, unexplored character who still has some fairly good tools in his kit, despite some large nerfs. - Not really hugely compensated for the nerfs he received and got completely left behind by the rest of the cast in terms of power. He sucks now because the nerf to his zoning is compensated by the buff too everyone else's projectiles and the need to really have good range or speed to make up for it in this meta | | | | |
Seems like I didn't need to say anything about Sandbag. Bedoop said it for me. Thx, Bedoop. While you convinced me in most cases... I forgot to talk about him in my last post... Why is he so low again? I mean, he's almost better than Fox. Look at them lasers. Look at that jump height. Srsly? Arrows? Threatening? They are easy to spam, yes, but just shield then and done. Off-stage? Nah. Pretty easy to miss and it hardly setups to anything. You would've done a better point if you talked about Upperdash Arm, which is predictable and has high endlag. Still has an awesome air speed, combined with the new strenghts of Pound, make her much higher than #27. I mean... Seriously? Got his recovery much improved (he can recover from literally anywhere if he has a double jump) and still has infinite horizontal recovery. His zoning abilities with Chibi-Blaster are amazing and he can angle aerial Chibi-Blaster much better. Still has a good neutral? Umm... How do you successfully approach with him? Tempest won't hit (already told you why and how), Rising Falcon is super predictable. Sonic Thrust has ton of endlag and sucks as a move. His projectile is eh and reverse Tiger Blade got toned down hard. N-Air doesn't have much range, D-Air just sucks, B-Air... Maybe? That leaves U-Air and F-Air, both shieldgrabbable and predictable. He just sucks. Most of the things he had of good got nerfed. Bottom 5 for sure. Ok, okay. He may get some horrible nerfs, but that's still not enough to him be anywhere lower than BM or even bottom three. n' Still standing my points. n' Whoops, seems like I worded myself wrongly. What I wanted to mean is why the gap between them are so big. I mean, they should've been in the same tier. I hardly can see Mario above Bowser. EDIT: As the guy above me said, why is DK above Bowser again? Bowser has a homing projectile and DK only got nerfed. His aerial Neutral-B makes him helpless. Bowser KOs characters much sooner, racks up damage much easier... Do I need to say more? EDIT2: Has a very decent range, actually. How's he "too fast for his own good"? Many ppl are even complaining he feels slower. Wtf. Still standing my points. It's very hard to consistently land Up-B on someone. Just DI. Most of the times, even without DI, the second hit won't land due to the knockback of the first hit. Totally agree with Nix. Just leaving it here.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:40 am |
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playridise
Joined: Wed May 17, 2017 10:21 pm Posts: 205 Country:
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| | | | NyxTheShield wrote: | | | | Corvid Crow wrote: | | | | NyxTheShield wrote: | | | | Corvid Crow wrote: MM is literally the best character in terms of pure zoning capabilities, sure hes slow but it doesn't matter when he can consistently win neutral and make it super hard for the opponent to get out of disadvantage due to his stage control, in other words you really cant be out-camped by another character while playing MM. I feel like a lot of MM players are underrating just how good his stage presence is as a whole, even without his three special moves for spacing and traps he has great aerials and good damage racking alongside really really good kill moves. MM players also underrate his close up game, nair is a fast and decent get off me option, pellets at close range are fast and combo into lots of things and his disjointed jab is great. Also the thing with MM's up b is that, not only does it have heavy armor, but the player can cancel it with any aerial. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT This pretty much means MM can recover in most situations, and if he feels threatened he can just throw out a nair to avoid any punishment. Add this all to a character who's rather heavy and you have an annoying, zoning character who isn't afraid to get up close, has a great punish game, great kill options and kill setups and lives forever. He rightfully deserves his placing in that tier. | | | | |
I wholeheartly disagree with this statement, I dont think megaman has the best neutral as you are making it to be and his stage control isnt as good as you are making it be. | | | | |
I never said he has the best neutral, i said he has the best zoning game, and honestly this community really doesnt understand how important stage control really is and with that many tools in his disposal, MM has a really, really good time covering options and forcing people into awful positions. | | | | |
I disagree and I fail to see how he has the best zoning tools in the game. In fact, Thats compeltely false, you cant be good at zoning AND one of the slowest characters in the game at the same time. You cant have stage controls being that slow. A decent Fox can just, literally, laser camp you and evade all of your projectile game. | | | | |
I'd probably say that Mega Man's zoning tools are still the best in the game due to its immense range and how well down-b can be used for stage control along with pellets making it hard for the opponent to approach, and side-b forcing opponents to do an action without having to move much since the strategy for zoning is to make the opponent to not approach so mobility doesn't really matter all that much. But the speed is a flaw on his own. Mega Man has a lot of range in general which is often an attribute in neutral along with a pretty good zoning game. However, since mobility is also needed to have a good neutral so he doesn't get constantly chased around once the opponent works around Mega Man's tools, he pretty much lacks that. So simply put, Mega Man's neutral isn't the best. So I do agree with Corvid's statement on Mega Man not having the best neutral but the best Zoning Game. But we should mention that there are like no notable Mega man mains. Since HKD (Despite pretty much being amazing with mega man) never really enters tournaments to demonstrate Mega Man's dominance. And tbh I shouldn't count either really. And based off of most matchup spreads Mega Man mains make in general, he simply just can't compete with most top tiers in most matchups as he often struggles against rushdowns and he loses to a lot of characters below him. Top 10 at best and Top 15 at worst.
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Last edited by playridise on Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:43 am |
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