So I feel the official tier list for 1,0,3 is pretty accurate, but I feel pretty strongly about some characters placement. (if you saw my post about Kirby, you know what I mean.) So here's I link to my tier list.

https://ibb.co/kwB4h7

feel free to yell at me all you want. I love destructive criticism.

First make an actual signature, then we'll talk about how s*** your tier list is.

At least he got Luigi's placement right

Alright lets talk about it.

Meta Knight and Fox are both too high. They're really good, but not better than Marth, Ichigo and Samus.Bomberman, Chibi-Robo and Black Mage are way lower than they should be. Bomberman has a really good combo game, can kill easily and can basically restrict where his opponent can go if played well enough. Chibi-Robo has great combos that can almost always lead to U-air, which is a great kill move in its own right. Black Mage has pretty good combos, has a throw that deals 20%, and can get rid of a lot of the opponent's options if he has time to full charge F-smash Sonic should be Low Tier. He has no disjoints or projectiles in a meta where those two things are extremely important. Pit should be lower. Multihits don't work very well in this game and almost all of his moves are multihits. Luffy should be lowered. He has barely anything to combo or kill with, and his extended limbs can be hit. Donkey Kong should be top tier because of his outstanding combo game. Even better kill options. And his hitboxes are extremely big. Wario should be lower for the same reasons as Sonic, but Wario has an even worse neutral. Although I do believe he's better than what the official tier list says, he definitely isn't high tier. Mega Man is too low. He has a amazing neutral and really good everything else. Peach should be Mid Tier. Her combo game is pretty good and turnips are amazing if used correctly, but they aren't safe to pull out. And her kill moves are either slow or difficult to land. Pac-man should be lower not because he's bad, just that everything about him is mediocre or pretty good. Isaac should be quite a bit higher, his neutral is great and his combo game is pretty good too. There should also overall be less characters in bottom tier or lower tier because most, if not all, of the characters are viable.
Everything else about this tier list I either agree with or I'm not sure of because I don't know the character that well.

Let me go make a huge rant on your tier list:

Bomberman isn't the worst: Bomberman has an infamously good grab game which allows for Bomberman to go ham on his insane damage output and to cause the opponent to constantly play overcautious while also having to be limited in movement options from bombs. Bomberman has ridiculously good stage control with bombs and Bomberman possesses insanely good kill setups including the infamous down-throw to P-Bomb. Oh and Bomberman has results from OriginalJoey. Not going to go too into detail into bomberman, but i'd put him in the upper end of mid tier.

Chibi Robo is Top 15 and not bottom 5 at all: Chibi Robo has 80% kill confirms off of Up-Air along with having setups into it thanks to Up-Throw which is literally the same percent confirms as smash 4 bowser! Oh and Blaster can confirm into kill moves like B-Air. Chibi Robo's access to great disjoints allows for Chibi Robo to never have to deal with trading with his opponents, especially against characters without disjoints giving Chibi Robo a huge advantage. Chibi Robo also has insanely good ground mobility with dash cancelling and Chibi Robo has one of the best recoveries in the game simple because of his dumb side-b and up-special combination. Most of his worst matchups got nerfed too so there's that.

Black Mage a LITTLE too low: While most people may agree with your Black Mage position, i find Black Mage to be a little underrated. Black Mage overall has really good frame data, disjointed range, stupid active frames (Especially his infamous F-Smash), great ledge trapping ability in the form of Meteor + F-Smash coverage, and lots of results from Drarky. While his neutral isn't great, however in SSF2 the neutral game tends to be more player-based than character-based so Black Mage isn't really as bad as some may say. I'd say to put him in the higher end of Bottom 10 or in mid tier.

Zelda is too low: Zelda's defensive game overall makes her hard to fight against since disjoints cannot really be traded with properly. This mechanic alone benefits Zelda heavily and her kill confirms can be quite insane with her lightning kick 50/50s. Place her in the higher end of mid tier.

Isaac a little too low: Isaac does have terrible frame data and his best defensive moves from 1.0.2 did become tradeable ruining his defensive game by quite a bit, however his side-special "Move" is way too good for Isaac to be low tier. The move allows Isaac to edge guard anyone for free without having to worry about trading and backwards side-special to down-smash is an actual 50/50. Isaac also can just abuse the hell out of his insane active frames and his results from Djinn at least warrants Isaac to be around Mid Tier.

Luffy is way too high: Definitely put Luffy at bottom 3. His lack of disjoints and extended hurtboxes along with terrible frame data makes most of Luffy's moves end up having him become a sitting duck most of the time and it makes him super dependent on port priority most of the time. Luffy may have a couple of dumb confirms, however he doesn't really have any ways to reliable kill. His kill throw kinda sucks, none of. his confirms really lead into any kill moves, and most of his moves just don't kill well with DI. The only way Luffy can truly kill is with forcing a tech chase with Back-Throw and maybe getting a D-Smash depending on the opponent's tech roll and killing them at 120 if you are lucky. Oh and Luffy's recovery is kinda glitchy, specifically his up-b and how he can't really recover when under a stage like ZSS except its a. little less of a prominent issue because of down-special.

Pit is too High: Pit's moves got obliterated by the new multihit system which makes a lot of his moves not connect properly. Pit also has a pretty underwhelming punish game, has priority problems especially with arrows which gets clanked with a lot of things, he doesn't really have good frame data, and Pit has an overall gimable recovery along with lacking an advantage state outside of. maybe having disjoints. Put him somewhere around low tier tbh.

Mega Man too low: While Mega Man did get screwed over by the new projectile mechanics, Mega Man still has pellets that allow for him to literally confirm anything off of pellets at close range. Mega Man also can abuse the superarmor from Beat and just cancel an aerial which is a better alternative than just shorthop aerial and it overall makes Mega Man harder to deal with. Mega Man is also great at zoning out pretty much anyone and Mega Man's Grab Confirms + usage of P-Bomb combination allows him to kill his opponents consistently at 90-100 I'd put him in the lower end of high tier where Yoshi is.

Sonic is way too high: Sonic got destroyed by port priority tbh. Sonic pretty much plays like a bait and punish character because of the fact that he can't trade with other moves while still not having good enough frame data like fox to just hit the opponent in the first place and constantly get in. However the issue with that is how he doesn't really have a punish game. Sonic doesn't really have any true good confirms off of any of his moves along with having pretty underwhelming kill power and being pretty easy to wall out and camp. Put him around bottom 5.

Jigglypuff is way too high: Jigglypuff lost her insane air mobility and given the fact that she tends to lose the trade with her opponents due to her nonexistent disjoints and poor range, her lightweight gets abused completely while her neutral gets weaker. Jigglypuff also doesn't really have any good matchups while also being easy to wall out by pretty much anyone while also having a pretty nonexistent grab game.

Pac-Man is too high: I think I've beaten this chracter to the ground enough, but let me just go briefly sum up my points. Pac-Man has below average range making his matchups against higher tiered characters pretty bad along with having terrible matchups against most top tiers. Pac-Man also has a pretty nonexistent combo game and punish game especially compared to smash 4 while also having very unreliable and poor kill power where he has to depend on hydrant 99% of the time for killing as bell only has a set amount of stun time instead of being percent based. Pac-Man also has predictable landing options, a pretty bad tech roll making him susceptible to tech chasing pretty easily, a grab with lots of endlag, and more. Put him either right below bowser probably.

Wario is Bottom 5 and not High Tier: Wario has some of the worst range in the game, terrible matchups against most of the cast, pretty poor KO options outside of waft, no real approach options, and his air speed got nerfed for pretty much no reason. These reasons alone make Wario bottom 5 despite a slightly above average punish game and decent recovery.

Kirby is too high: Kirby gets screwed over by the trading system especially without port priority meaning his light weight is even more of an issue. Kirby also has some mobility issues and doesn't really have any decent range. Kirby doesn't really have good enough of a matchup spread either to warrant his current spot. I'd place him around the lower end of mid tier.

DK is too low: Donkey Kong literally has near guaranted 0 to deaths off of cargo up-throw! He can literally abuse his B-Air then go for a cargo up-throw and then just make one read then your stock is done. That alone + Donkey Kong having the best results in ssf2 beta as a whole thanks to prolific leads Dnkey Kong to being near top 5 material.

Peach is too high: Peach has too many swordie matchup issues to be that high + her walling abilities with turnips gets ruined by their terrible priority to the point where fox's lasers can outprioritize turnips. Place her around top of mid tier or in the lower end of high tier.

Meta Knight is too high: Meta Knight is infamous for having the worst tech roll in the game along with his ladder being easy to DI out of, that and the fact that Meta Knight doesn't really have a good enough matchup spread to warrant being close to top 5, i'd say to place Meta Knight right outside of top 10.

Fox is too high: Again, another character whose matchup spread isn't really good enough to be quite this high, but Fox I guess does have more representation and even crazier kill confirms compared to Meta Knight to at least be top 10. I'd say around in between top 5 and 10.

Tails and Samus should bein their own tier: Tails and Samus pretty much have no losing matchups along with having near nonexistent disadvantage state outside of minor issues (Such as Tail's not so great vertical recovery and Samus having issues when walling with characters with reflectors despite winning against those characters). This is probably the smallest nitpick but i'd like to mention that.

Overall your tier list is pretty... bad. I'd suggest to get into competitive ssf2 some more and to learn more about other characters and learning more from high/top level players and what they have to say to improve your tier list. There were definitely other issues I had with your tier list such as Pikachu, G&W, and other character placements but these were the ones that stood out the most to me. Also I suggest making more tiers to make the tier list seem more organized (it doesn't need to be as much as my tier list though lol). Oh and sorry for not getting too into detail as I could easily write an essay for each character, but I just wanted to give you a couple of reasons for why I disagree with said placements as there were too many issues with your tier list.

Also here's my current tier list as of right now in case you were wondering:

ok, I listen to your complaints, er, suggestions, and made a new tier list accordingly. Here you go.

https://ibb.co/fBtRfS

feel free to bash this one too, I'm gonna listen to all the complaints till I make an objectively perfect their list. (not that people will ever not bash it.)

As we see more tier lists shared I've become curious as to where those people draw the viability line. Thoughts?

Luigi to be honest is the only character that is truly unviable in my opinion. Luffy at least got a ton of results from Noctis to prove that Luffy could work as a viable character. Naruto has a tech chasing niche that could make him okay vs characters with bad tech rolls like Meta Knight as a niche counterpick along with technically having results from Prolific who went solo-naruto on one tournament and got top 8 and went DK the rest of the way. And everyone else at least has something going for them (ZSS and Pit has disjoints, Jigglypuff has rest 50/50s that kills at 10, Sonic has Artmagic and a semi-good neutral and N-Air to make him good in some cases + port priority sonic, etc.). Luigi has literally no real strengths with his best strength (His fireballs) being easy to counterplay with any move being able to clank with fireballs while the move doesn't stuff approach properly, and he suffers way too much from the new ssf2 mechanics and port priority doesn't even benefit him that much.

some notes im gonna put in rn

BM is easily bottom 10 at this point, his toolset really isnt as good as people assume it is
very weak neutral game with minimal disjointed options, and the ones that are disjointed dont work (Uair)
slightly above average frame data, tho he still has really slow moves for no apparent reason (usmash), problem with these fast moves is that most if not all of them are very easy to outspace and just beat out.
not to mention that without port he cant beat hitboxes with any of his moves besides the barely disjointed bair and dtilt
his combo game really isnt strong at all, and the only thing that keeps his damage racking okay is a 20% dthrow lmao
he still has a very strong edge-guard and ledge game but his disadvantage is complete trash, and the fact you can clank with meteor now makes it even worse
also a psa that drarky's results especially nowadays dont say much for bm when hes playing chibi like 80% of the time at least

zss on the other hand is hella underrated, sure her recovery has been nerfed but its still somewhat usable, she has an insane combo game and with her long range neutral tools of nair, fair and plasma whip she can contend with a lot of the better characters

bdee could be higher with some real love given to the character, amazing spacing tools in fair and nspecial, along with a fairly strong combo game and good overall kill options (bair, up b, down b, fsmash, offstage fair/nair)

pit is definitely bottom 5, next to no range, awful frame data, poor damage, sucks at killing, sucks at recovering, sucks at everything

sora is also a character that could see a higher placing with more exposure, his combo game can be incredible at times and with kill confirms a plenty his only real problem is a somewhat sub-par neutral game

bowser is a character thats slowly going to go down the tier list unless he's given more mobility in a future patch

ness will probably stay a mid tier or dip a little bit once the pseudo infinite gets removed, his punish game is still brutal

fox > falco but they both suck now, not top tiers at all, especially online

goku is still a ridiculous character and surely top 10

issac is still a good character, his mu chart however is all over the place, he absolutely destroys the worst characters yet gets wrecked by link and samus

top 5 atm is samus/tails > marth > lloyd >>> link/dk

Black Mage's Frame Data is a lot better than you may think, but i'm too lazy to go into the game's files but trust me it's pretty damn good. Moves like F-Air, N-Air, possibly B-Air (Technically disjointed), etc. are all fast disjointed moves. Eventhough his disjoints aren't spectacular, at least it is something. D-Throw dealing 20% is kind of dumb to be fair, and N-Air to Up-Tilt strings are you know, a thing that exists. His ability to ledge trap and just cover every ledge option with F-Smash is noteworthy. He may not be too spectacular, however his strengths are at least enough to make him functional enough to be above the characters below him.

Zero Suit Samus's recovery is completely glitched to the point where it is impossible for her to recover from under the stage and for a tether recovery it has pretty horrendous distance. A lot of her combo follow ups and setups like Up-Special are unsafe on hit in many situations so they honestly aren't that threatening.

Bandana Dee does have some more kill setups than he did before especially with D-Air, however it still isn't great and he still is sort of a glass cannon without fire power. Though gotta give credit where credit is due with his super good defensive game and retreating game with disjoints.

Pit's range is actually still decent and disjointed, it's just the multihits that f**k it up. Also Down-Smash and Up-Air are definitely good kill options and being a swordie fundamentally puts him at least above bottom 5.

The issue with Sora is the fact that outside of disjoints and having a good combo game and I guess a couple of good individual moves, he honestly lacks any other real advantages which makes him somewhat underwhelming.

Bowser at least has a top tier grab range and he can abuse shieldpoking a lot with D-Air which makes his neutral not as bad as it actually seems despite having some of the worst landing options in the game and for being super slow. He also has some pretty decent yet strict kill confirms that gives him the ability to take stocks at 70% near consistently.

Ness is probably gonna drop

The Spacies are still good as despite not having disjoints and for being combo food with a gimpable recovery, they still have a really good neutral with a fantastic punish game with an unparalleled pressure game along with them having stupidly good frame data (Especially fox) along with Fox having insane mobility and Falco having his insane edge guarding game. The fact that a lot of their moves are hard to punish in general and how they can constantly overwhelm their opponents easily makes them still an upper high tier charcater.

Goku would of been top 10 if his frame data wasn't so below average. If you've actually been to the game's files then you'd realize how actually bad goku's frame data is while also having range issues.

Isaac is honestly a lot lower as the new mechanics screwed up his defensive game and he pretty much has the worst frame data in the game making his ability to be rushed down way too apparent compared to 1.0.2

Regarding Black Mage, I understand your point. One thing to note is that the neutral game tends to be more player based rather than character based just fyi. I placed BM out of bottom 10 simply because I feel like the characters below him just have it worse simply put and have an even worse disadvantage state.

Like ZSS does have a good combo game, and it does place her at least in Upper Low tier. However given how bad her recovery is, it honestly makes it so one neutral == death and ZSS's neutral is pretty average along with the neutral game tending to be more playerbased which pretty much means that ZSS can't really consistently do well.

Oh and I thought that you meant that Bandana Dee was like high tier or something lol. Yea Bandana Dee is the definition of a mid tier character. I only placed him in the bottom of upper mid tier on my tier list so I didn't have to put him in the same tier as bowser.

Actually by going through the game files, Pit's range is definitely not great but it still is pretty adequate and the hitbox sizes are actually quite reasonable, it'sj ust how easy to SDI out of they are. Up-Air is a multihit that's pretty hard to escape out of however just fyi. D-Smash is useful for tech chasing opportunities given the 10 (20 in 60fps) frame window for punishing most tech rolls making D-Smash useful for killing in a lot of scenarios like that along with covering quite a bit of ledge options at the same time. To be honest I still think there are definitely characters worse than him, especially in terms of matchups.

Sora's frame data is actually not that good, it's a lot worse than it actually looks. I don't have much to say about Sora but he's pretty much still a mid tier character plain and simple.

Bowser's mobility is definitely trash, but at least his grab is super disjointed and given that it's his main tool in neutral, that at least helps bowser a ton and his general range at least helps him cover the distance that would of been covered with mobility. Also Bowser's Defensive options are good just fyi, Up-Special overall covers a lot of distance and can be ledge cancelled and is a fantastic move OoS. Bowser also has access to a fantastic ledge guarding game in the form of B-Air as well. One thing to note is for empty hopping you must use N-AIr as it has less landing lag than landing normally. Bowser's landing would still be kinda bad even with that tip but it definitely helps him a lot in the long run while also having a free hitbox everytime he lands making it possible for Bowser to actually jump around and mix up with D-Air.

Falco still has a lot of strengths that Fox has besides his absurd mobility and having potentially weaker frame data. However Falco has a better overall pressure game and honestly has some of the best edge guarding in the game which btw for falco is a reliable way to secure stocks. Falco is more about forcing the opponent to approach with his lasers to make up for his lack of mobility which is an effective strategy. Like you said, they are High tier (Upper High tier in my book). However how exactly are their advantage state getting weaker and weaker?

Goku's frame data isn't just not good, it's actually really bad. In fact, Goku has by far the worst frame data out of all of the non-disjointed characters outside of characters like Bowser. I won't get into specifics onto how bad they are so I don't get bamboozled by mcleod, but his frame data is almost on par with Link when it comes to his non-unpunishable moves (So no D-Tilt lol). Bad frame data and range issues are kind of a bad combination to have and it overall is enough to put Goku as an only top 15 character instead of 10.

The issue with Isaac was that back then, he was honestly only high tier because his defensive game was unparallel. He had such good spacing tools that couldn't be combatted with lower tiers. With those tools now being laggy and tradeable, Isaac honestly lacks what most swordfighters have, and that is the ability to always win the trade. Most of the moves that involve his sword are laggy and are just not that great in general and having the worst frame data in the game is a huge problem. Also his recovery is pretty gimpable despite its decent distance either way and his neutral became from good to relatively underwhelming with him having to use Move which may force a reaction, however its slow and makes him prone to being rushed down. Isaac is definitely just a mid tier, period.

tfw made a new account because you can't get in your old one

I haven't played the game in a long time, but I was in the mood to make an SSF2 TL again, so I loaded up the game, and drew an opinion of some characters, which are represented on this list.

I mean, it is only V1, and I do intend to change things in the future.



So, a quick couple of things that I may or may not change:

I've a feeling he's a tad too high, his frame data is iffy, as is his range. Probably gonna drop him down the list a bit. Who knows.

I don't know, man. Maybe it's just main bias, but I think Sonic is a little better than most make him out to be. I think I will bump him down a spot or two. Nair is good and his neutral is okay, but that's about it. But I will be damned if he isn't fun to play.

Okay yeah Luigi's trash. But I don't think he's trash enough of a character to be the worst, but he sure as hell is close.

Why is luigi so high though? Also Samus should be in the same tier as Tails. Goku is fine he doesn't need to be lower, his flaws just puts him out of top 10, etc.

My personal tier list right here