Not really, Zelda can grab an opponent out of dash attack just as easily as she can utilt or land a lightning kick. Also alot of times if I miss hitting the reappearance explosion on FW the opponent is usually close enough I can grab them. Which is easy since Zelda's grab is pretty long, it also helps when you're playing defensively. I:E: Like grabbing Marth over the ledge when he hits you're shield with his Up spec. But yeah I see what you're saying, Zelda doesn't have as many raw grab opprotunities as say Fox. So she has to work harder and rely on reads more.

Megaman's Bthrow kills at 90%. Black Mage's Bthrow kills at 120%, and with DI, Ness's Bthrow doesn't KO until 140%. Zelda's can kill at 70%, so it's in a league of its own.

And I don't think Ichigo vs. Zelda is 60:40; probably a bit worst than that. Zelda is very helpess to stop or punish Ichi's Up-special or opening strings into that attack to keep Ichigo safe.

I think the more pertinent question is not the percentages that throws kill, but what throw combos can kill at. DK's fthrow -> fair trumps all of these throws. Having throws that can kill early doesn't really stand out among really good kill moves.

Damn, it sucks to know Ness got his bthrow nerfed. He's on my to learn list but he's looking kinda meh.
Anyways I think the only rare cases where bthrow KOs at 70% is if your opponent doesn't DI or you're vsing Kirbs or Jiggs. Other than that I don't really see a problem with it.

And you're probs right about the Ichigo MU even though I find Zelda has a very easy time taking stocks from him very early(his recovery lol) this is one of the MUs where anything bad you do to him, he can do bad things to you +more. He's seriously op against a majority of the cast. But if you're having problems with his upB I usually do this.

1)If you're above Ichigo(and if you're not and you don't get sucked into the hitbox jump above him.) while he uses his upB take advantage of the windbox and thank god you're not in the hitbox. After upB ends and Ichigo's in cooldown use Faore's Wind to teleport directly down to explode him in the face.
2)If you're on the ground and he uses/spams his upB and you magically get sucked into the hitbox due to the windbox don't panic. DI towards Ichigo, and once his upB is on cooldown use Faore's Wind and hit him with the ribbon. Simply aim left or right and escape.

I think Ichigo honestly counters almost everyone now, except maybe Link or Samus.

And Ness is actually really good, you can actually counter Peach's aerial game with his. He's pretty fast and mindgame like.

I'd say Ichi has more bad MU's then you would think. The fact that he's combo fodder means that a lot of characters can juggle him for days, and he has a poor recovery. Black Mage can fair -> fair near the edge and kill at insane percents, for example. Back on topic: I think Zelda has a slight disadvantage against Ichigo, but I think Din's Fire can attack Ichigo when he's safe from melee attacks and Ichigo has a tough time once Zelda lands a hit.

Agreed. The book on how to beat him looks fine on paper but doesn't translate like everyone thinks. Regardless, Ichi is just a really lame dude to play against. People barely use his set because you don't have to. I haven't even faced any lately so maybe people are growing sick of him.

I also agree with what TheCodeSamurai said about DK's fthrow>fair. That is waaaay too easy of a setup, not to mention his bthrow kills super low, too.

My Zelda is fast~

Ya I'd say this MU is in slight disadvantage for Zelda. As much trouble as Ichi gives Zelda on getting in, one mistake can cost him a stock. This is especially due to Ichi's recovery being terrible. He can only choose to go vertical or horizontal once Zelda knocks him off stage, and most of the time he'll be under the ledge so his side spec is usually never an option. It also helps that most of Zelda's kill moves are horizontal with good hitsun(Bthrow, Lightning Kicks, Dsmash).
So in the end I'd say the MU would be 60:40/65:35 but not anything unwinnable like Ichi vs. Jiggs.

Unlike many characters, Zelda doesn't really need to get in. Just stay out of s-spec range and fair waveland range, and you can Din's Fire for days. Ichigo v Jiggz isn't totally unwinnable IMHO, but I'll leave that for another time.

Does dthrow -> bair kill earlier than bthrow?

But if you're both a far distance outside each others' ranges, that means Ichigo can safely Side-Special/Dash-Attack through Dins. Those attacks have more priorities on the projectile and Ichigo will closed the distance to at least a mid-range.

I think that's where Farore's Wind, Comes in handy, It has a decent kockback if you can land right on your opponent, and Ichigos charge attacks are really no match for how quick Farore's wind is. Its also really hard to predict if Zelda is fleeing from the attack, aiming to land on you and start a combo, (like with her amazing Dsmash), or if she's bluffing and staying on the spot.If Ichigo is going for his 'Getsuga Tenshō' The startup and slow movement speed is useless against Nayru's Love. However, I've only played against a few HUMAN Ichigos so,I think I might be wrong.

So I found a use for Nayru's Love, in place of nair as an approach option against projectile zoning characters.(Samus, Link, Naruto, Megaman) It's so satisfying reflecting a missle at samus then having her eat the shards from Nayru's.

Also found out Zelda can Dtilt -> Grab.


Also to clarify most of Zelda's gaurenteed Bair set ups don't kill, since they(Ftilt, Dthrow) scale drastically with % and can't lead to sweetspot bair after around 40-50%. Although Dash Attack can still lead into Bair at varying percents but this is very situational pending on which part of dash attack you hit with and opponent weight.

Most of Zelda's guaranteed setups aren't really guaranteed. Most are really depended on percent and DI, so she to guess on the DI option most times.

Shine, we need to play a Zelda mirror sometime. I've played mirrors with Doqtor Kirby, who's probably 2nd best, Tham Heartstrings, who probably the best Zelda (outside of myself).

Here's one of the mirrors.

Is there any major difference in zelda's F-air and b-air? Like, is one more effective than the other in any way like knockback or damage?