Yes to this. As long as Fox doesn't go in too hard on Wario, he will win. Wario is so slow and could end up with lots of % if Fox stays away. I think Fox is at a disadvantage vs Wario if W catches him, though. Plus, Wario can't chain Chomp Fox since he falls so fast unless F is caught by Chomp in the air.

So I was messing around with Fox and learning how to use him and I came across something interesting. When I was near the edge I grabbed the cpu and did Fox's down throw and the cpu flew downwards. Has that always been possible?

At the far edge, Fox's down throw does that. Ichigo's as well. Kirby's may, but it's too hard for me to set up.

New about Ichigo's but I didn't know Fox could do it to

Guys how the hell do I fight Fox with Kirby. I know Kirby can gimp pretty good when fox is recovering (if he guesses right) but in neutral what should i be doing. Its so hard to punish anything or combo/juggle because of his frame 1 shine


(also that bair hit box lasts for far too long )

What about your whole ledge stalling thing?

The only things Kirby wants to be doing on stage against Fox I can think of are:
1.Spaced fairs and bairs to punish his nairs, dash-attack works too.
2.Swallow to uptilts or upsmash and upairs to maybe a hammer.
3.Look for grab oportunities to setup for edgeguards, where you can decide what´s most optimal.
Well... that´s about it.

Its not very effective against foxes with patience. Kirby is going to eat shine and bair all over the place.
My Kirby on paper should lose to anyone who plays super aggresive. In practice, that only seems to apply to Fox.

You can punish Fox super hard: I think you can chaingrab with d-throw with reaction to DI, utilt chain, edgeguard really well, and combo him hard in the air. Your main problem is getting hits in. You could always try to either copy Blaster or duck, which eliminates Fox being too campy, but you have problems with his aerial moveset and Shine. I can't really give much more advice but to stay in the air, where you have strong options. Don't try to intercept Fox with utilt or SH aerials: Fox has landing options that can't be shieldgrabbed because he'll Shine you, and his aerials are really strong and combo into usmash, which kills you at like -20%. Janky edge crap works too. Just get him offstage and then bair him to death.

I really wish shine had lag.

I am of the opinion a very safe frame 1 move that can instantly and garunteed combo into itself and very strong kill moves while allowing you to change direction so you dont have to worry between bair and usmash, can gimp, allow easy shield pressure, stall your recovery, act as a combo breaker, hamper or prevent punishment of your bad spacing, and cause all of someone's projectiles to backfire is just bad design. The only problem is its range, but you can still jump out of it frame 1 so its ridiculously hard to punish on whiff. It's simply the single best move in the game, as it was in melee. Fox would be a perfectly viable character without this move, so I don't see any reason to keep it outside of appealing to the melee crowd.

I don't understand why anyone would think this isnt broken. It really should be nerfed. All it needs is either the jump cancel removed or there be a delay before being able to jump out of it. This way it can still be used to stall, break combos, gimp, and reflect, and on a good read be able to disrupt someone's potential punish, which would still make it a very powerful move.

But this change will never happen.

I think Shine shouldn't be nerfed for a couple reasons:
--Fox isn't broken or even the best like he was in Melee IMO
--Shine can't be spammed in the same way that Light Dash could be spammed last demo. Its use is highly situational because it is outranged fairly easily
--It is a highly technical move to use well, which makes Fox a technical and interesting character

The main thing is that it isn't spammable in the way that Light Dash was last demo, and just spamming Shine will get you killed, even if you could do frame-perfect multishines. It isn't really safe in the way that Light Dash was, because many moves beat it and will hit you out of jumpstart.

Agreed.
Shine is fine. It adds so much depth and technical skill to the character that it would be ridiculous to remove it. Fox is well balanced in my opinion.

1) The meta game is under developed right now so it hard to tell that. And keep in mind that a character doesnt have to be the best character in the game to need a nerf, nor need to be the worst character in the game to need a buff. Fox lost wavedash from melee but so has everyone else, and he's very capable of playing footsies and evading without it.

2) Comparing 1 broken move to another broken move does not make it any less broken (and light dash was nerfed anyways.) And I did state that range was it's only issue, but the move is not very situational. The list of uses in my last post is very expansive mind you. It's not a move you would logically use at a distance unless you are trying to reflect something or stall recovery. While you can just spam the move mindlessly, it's so insanely versatile with a larger number of applications than any move in the game. Even after a nerf like this there are still many situations that the move would be useful in.

3) A larger amount of tech skill does not justify a character having a large advantage like that. Fox is a character with lots of options, but when you are up close the best option is 90% of the time is to shine. It combos into basically anything and it makes Fox's approaches have way lower risk than they should. How many other characters is it a good idea to attack someone's shield on the ground up close after they shielded an aerial? Shine is a move that punishes people's punishes. As far as the interesting aspect goes, I believe Fox would become a more interesting character if he couldn't rely on shine so much, and will have to focus more on his other mindgames an options. This nerf would actually be healthy to the character's depth, as his would have more reason to use his other options over shine. Shine does not make the character deep, it instead overshadows his other options.

And keep in mind that this nerf would not destroy shine's usefulness, infact it keeps many of its uses. It would still come out frame 1 and have the same stun and knockback, so the only thing that gets removed is blind pressure and frame 1 combo usmashes/bairs. And this nerf would not destroy Fox's viability, as he still has access to many options and ways to pressure and evade, and he would still have a good combo game and would still be able to reliably land kills. I can't see this making him any worse than upper mid tier.

In my training mode exploits DIing shine will save you from usmash only if you get hit by the very edge of shine. It looks like shine grab is completely garunteed tho.


(on another note i think his Fair should be buffed. Give it 3 kicks instead of 5 and have the last one give more knockback, a move to rack up damage in a combo. Give him a reason to use the move over other aerials and not make it basically kill yourself when off stage. Also please tighten bair hitbox or give it a sourspot or something, his back foot really shouldn't kill you like that lol.)


but yeah i know im of the minority opinion here and i know this move will never get nerfed like this.

tbh if we're talking nerfs for fox in general. the ones I would make are these:
• make B-air less powerful the longer it stays out (I've noticed people just toss this move out when the enemy is within kill %, and they just hope it hits because it stays the same strength throughout the duration of the move being out)
• make shine's ability to trap other characters in multishines less good (right now I can s*** out 3 multishines easily before the other player can SDI out)

But in actuality, when balancing characters the whole cast is taken as a whole and looked at. From what I can tell, Fox is a character that is either able to do well against certain characters, and then gets s*** on by the rest of the cast easier than he s*** on the characters he beats. At a glance, Kirby looks like a character that seems like he will lose to Fox, not because of shine, but because of Fox's strong kill moves that can get rid of Kirby faster then they'll get rid of the larger majority of the roster.
IMO, however, I think that Kirby definitely has the tools to take care of Fox just as well as Fox is able to take care of Kirby.

My thoughts really werent about the kirby matchup with the shine post.
But i heavily agree with your nerf ideas. I dont play fox at all but ive been winning matches with him online spamming bair and shine all over the place without a care in the world.