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MarkS Stage Sprites 
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lookin good, but the hand needs work

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Sat Aug 08, 2015 3:17 pm
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MarkS wrote:
@ spidr, thanks, I think? Also, if you're Game-Spidr online, good games.

@crime, yeah I still need to work on parts of it, like the hand amongst others.

@ kid, Ok cool, so what should I do to improve? What values of sprite art are you talking about? I post things on here to get feedback and criticism so I can improve, but I don't quite understand what you mean towards the end.


No problem, also i am Game-Spidr ggs :ichigo:

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Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:15 pm
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Well, a good start would be to start off without such a heavy reference. Like I said, it looks like you traced it. No idea if you did, but it looks like a traced 3D model. I would start over and not do that.


Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:07 pm
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kidicarus29 wrote:
Well, a good start would be to start off without such a heavy reference. Like I said, it looks like you traced it. No idea if you did, but it looks like a traced 3D model. I would start over and not do that.



That's kind of how you make things like that, you know. If you want something to look like it's original version, then it's a good idea to trace it, especially if it's a starting off point. The hard part is the shading/shaping and overall look of it.

How and why do you think Mario looks like he does in SSF2?
I'm not 100% on this, but something tells me Hyrule Temple wasn't freehand.

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Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:06 pm
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Tracing isn't a good practiced at all.

Art is all about interpretation, correct? If so, then, even when referencing a work, one's style should be taken into account. Mimicking an exact model shows not only a lack of skill to be able to represent the work in its own way, but it doesn't tend to look too great with pixel art. The worst consequence of them all, though, is that you are crippled by the fact that you can't do any work without tracing over the piece itself, and if it's a character you have to trace exact animations. This means you don't have the ability to do any of the work yourself at the same quality as the base, leaving you with a less-than-decent sprite to say the least.

Tracing is acceptable as a way to understand the form of objects, but it shouldn't be used for anything other than reference. Pixel art specifically will never look good when traced over 3D models, especially if one doesn't know how to color it in properly themselves at that resolution.

Mario looks how he does now because he was referenced. I don't believe he was traced, but if he was I definitely would have a problem with that. The animations are done well, but tracing is a crippling practice that will hinder your ability to gain skill as an artist in the future. You will never gain any real experience by simply copying another's work. Referencing is "copying" an idea, not a work.


Sun Aug 09, 2015 2:16 am
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kidicarus29 wrote:
Tracing isn't a good practiced at all.

Art is all about interpretation, correct? If so, then, even when referencing a work, one's style should be taken into account. Mimicking an exact model shows not only a lack of skill to be able to represent the work in its own way, but it doesn't tend to look too great with pixel art. The worst consequence of them all, though, is that you are crippled by the fact that you can't do any work without tracing over the piece itself, and if it's a character you have to trace exact animations. This means you don't have the ability to do any of the work yourself at the same quality as the base, leaving you with a less-than-decent sprite to say the least.

Tracing is acceptable as a way to understand the form of objects, but it shouldn't be used for anything other than reference. Pixel art specifically will never look good when traced over 3D models, especially if one doesn't know how to color it in properly themselves at that resolution.

Mario looks how he does now because he was referenced. I don't believe he was traced, but if he was I definitely would have a problem with that. The animations are done well, but tracing is a crippling practice that will hinder your ability to gain skill as an artist in the future. You will never gain any real experience by simply copying another's work. Referencing is "copying" an idea, not a work.


Mario, along with everyone else directly from Smash save a few, are traced. I'm a Dev, so I've actually worked on a few animations. As long as literally everything you do isn't tracing, you aren't crippling yourself in any way.
We do that because we are meant to preserve the original look and feel of the Smash animations.

Even not related to SSF2, I still occasionally trace over things like animations and poses because it still helps me learn and develop.

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:49 pm
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As I've stated in the past, tracing is fine for learning because it can help you get out of ruts, but it should never be used solely for a piece because then you won't have the necessary means to create work on your own. It should be used sparingly.

Concerning SSF2, the look can be preserved without direct tracing. It can even be preserved without overly-detailing sprites as well! I understand that Cleod and possibly many more of the devs want SSF2 to have the look of a Smash game, but the fact that it is pixel art already differentiates it. The animations and even movesets could be a lot more flexible if not limited by the work of others.

Tracing something of your own like what you've drawn on paper is entirely fine, however, because that was created by yourself. Tracing isn't only bad because it is blatantly copying, but if abused then you won't learn how to draw/pixel without it. Not only that, but it doesn't even look good in most cases because many that do it won't understand to look for jaggies, noise, cluttered space, etc., and they especially won't understand how to make their own pose for a character. This stage is evidence of that, for sure.


Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:06 pm
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On the topic of SSF2, the tracing does lead to a large gap in quality between characters that are in Smash and those that aren't. Look at SSF2 Beta videos and compare Peach with Lloyd. The difference is immense. I LOVE the way the traced characters look, but some others need to be brought to that standard.

Anyway, on the topic of sprites: The stage looks pretty decent overall. I agree that the pixel art of it does need work, like the hand. I think the head is looking pretty good, if a little rough. The style of the whole thing needs more consistency. A consistent style of outlining should be used, unless MarkS has a very specific and good reason to mash different styles.

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Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:04 pm
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Cool. If you look a couple of pages back I actually mentioned that for this stage I was experimenting with tracing. The other stages I've done haven't used tracing, except maybe a bit on the Water Temple stage, but in this instance I wanted to try it. I get that some people are against it, you can't please everyone.

I wouldn't say that this is 'blatantly copying' though, I changed things in my own way.

Anyway the whole tracing thing seems controversial, but in this case I'm just experimenting, and if you don't like it, no problem, I have other projects on the go that don't use tracing.


Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:31 am
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Oh and yeah I hadn't finished the stage when I posted it, that hand and the rocks, stones etc... all need more work.


Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:32 am
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MarkS wrote:
Oh and yeah I hadn't finished the stage when I posted it, that hand and the rocks, stones etc... all need more work.


lol.. sorry if I'm being persistent, but I just wanna get across that it's more so that I consider tracing a bad practice in most situations. It's not that "I don't like it," it's that I don't want you to hinder any progress you can gain in terms of skill as an artist from creating content like this. Things won't always look exactly right if you don't trace, which is why you have references and people to help you out.


Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:45 pm
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Another stage I started a while ago. I haven't worked on it a lot yet, but I was inspired to finish it so expect an update soon-ish.

I know it's a boring flat(ish) walk off stage.. but I like it. I will add stuff like grass, the other boss masks, flowers etc...

The music could be something like the Song of Healing (amazing), or the Final Few Hours song, or the Giant's Song. Which is the best?

What needs fixing?


Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:53 am
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Majora's Mask could be a bit smaller.

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Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:40 am
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Can you teach me how you do foliage? You're really good at it.

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Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:21 am
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After a few more hours work today. It's not finished yet. I don't like parts of it.

@Steven: I use Gimp to do the foliage. I know it's sort of cheating but it's better than what I would be able to do by hand. So, in Gimp use the brush or pencil tool, you have two called vegetation. First I draw the outline of where the leaves should all be, which ones are darker etc, then I use the vegetation pencil tool to add them in. You have to modify the settings, the angle, size etc.. It's useful and it looks good so I don't feel too bad about using it, plus you do still have to know what you're doing. If you have gimp just experiment with it.

oh also, majora is now smaller, thanks. Also he is tinted green.


Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:47 pm
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