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Zelda 
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Zalozis wrote:
If there was any nerf that Zelda really really really really really really needed, it be to weaken sweet-spot Back-air to have similar knockback as Front-air.

Front-air, with good DI, you can survive up to 110%. That's reasonable.

Back-air, with good DI, you can survive up to 80%. That's not too bad.

The problem is, if she goes for any type of DI mix-up/cross-up, she can force her opponent to misprint the way their DI, killing them at 55%-65%, easy. Even if she's hitting with Bair from the far left of the stage, she can still get the kill off the right-side blastzone. 'Dtilt > Run off ledge > Bair cross-up' is way too godlike. I'm mentioning this because mix-ups and frame-traps are my playstyle with Zelda, so when I hit some with Bair at 60% and they die, I digest myself. Please considered Bair mirroring Fair's knockback.

That's an even worse than my dtilt lightning kick suggestion tbh.
You're asking for Zelda's KO power to be halved. Rather than mirroring Bair with Fair why not balance them both out. Instead of Bair KOing at 65% and Fair at 110% why not just make them both KO at around 85-90%(+20% and -20% from each kick). That way they can be balanced while retaining high KO power.
I also support the idea of Fair/Bair mirroring each other, but not if they both ko at 110% lol that's fsmash kill percent and that's pitiful.

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Last edited by Shine-chan on Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:55 pm
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Shine! wrote:
Zalozis wrote:
If there was any nerf that Zelda really really really really really really needed, it be to weaken sweet-spot Back-air to have similar knockback as Front-air.

Front-air, with good DI, you can survive up to 110%. That's reasonable.

Back-air, with good DI, you can survive up to 80%. That's not too bad.

The problem is, if she goes for any type of DI mix-up/cross-up, she can force her opponent to misprint the way their DI, killing them at 55%-65%, easy. Even if she's hitting with Bair from the far left of the stage, she can still get the kill off the right-side blastzone. 'Dtilt > Run off ledge > Bair cross-up' is way too godlike. I'm mentioning this because mix-ups and frame-traps are my playstyle with Zelda, so when I hit some with Bair at 60% and they die, I digest myself. Please considered Bair mirroring Fair's knockback.

That's even worse than my dtilt lightning kick suggestion tbh.



I really dont see your meaning here

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Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:59 pm
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WelfareWednesday wrote:
Shine! wrote:
Zalozis wrote:
If there was any nerf that Zelda really really really really really really needed, it be to weaken sweet-spot Back-air to have similar knockback as Front-air.

Front-air, with good DI, you can survive up to 110%. That's reasonable.

Back-air, with good DI, you can survive up to 80%. That's not too bad.

The problem is, if she goes for any type of DI mix-up/cross-up, she can force her opponent to misprint the way their DI, killing them at 55%-65%, easy. Even if she's hitting with Bair from the far left of the stage, she can still get the kill off the right-side blastzone. 'Dtilt > Run off ledge > Bair cross-up' is way too godlike. I'm mentioning this because mix-ups and frame-traps are my playstyle with Zelda, so when I hit some with Bair at 60% and they die, I digest myself. Please considered Bair mirroring Fair's knockback.

That's even worse than my dtilt lightning kick suggestion tbh.



I really dont see your meaning here

Reread it lol I added more

Also if Zelda needed some nerfs they should reduce the knockback on utilt
And reduce the number of hits Nair has

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Sun Jan 04, 2015 11:07 pm
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Shine! wrote:
You're asking for Zelda's KO power to be halved. Rather than mirroring Bair with Fair why not balance them both out. Instead of Bair KOing at 65% and Fair at 110% why not just make them both KO at around 85-90%(+20% and -20% from each kick)


You're right. That actually is better. Because even Fair Lightning Kick killing at 110% is really weak, for a hard to time, sweet-spot move. Especially when they're are sex-kick and single-hit aerial moves that kill at 95-100%.

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Mon Jan 05, 2015 12:50 am
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On another idea I think it would be cool if Faore's reappear explosion could kill at 70-90%

Not that Zelda would need this but it would be cool to have something flashy for those hard predicts. Also would it be broken if Faore's Ribbon had pure vertical knockback that could lead to the reappearance confirm?

Aka Faore's elevator, from ssb4

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:30 am
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Shine! wrote:
On another idea I think it would be cool if Faore's reappear explosion could kill at 70-90%

Not that Zelda would need this but it would be cool to have something flashy for those hard predicts. Also would it be broken if Faore's Ribbon had pure vertical knockback that could lead to the reappearance confirm?

Aka Faore's elevator, from ssb4

pls no, that move is good enough as it is.
so hard to punish it's ridiculous.

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:38 am
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Anyway back @Zalosis's mirroring idea
How far would they mirror each other?
Will they both deal 7% sour and 20% sweetspotted?
In terms of sweetspots would Bair still be bigger? Will Fair still have less aerial lag?

Also what about Dair?

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Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:14 am
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I think the minuscule start up and cool down on Zelda's kicks make her ridiculously difficult to punish with a lot of the cast. It seems like whenever you're looking to punish the first missed kick, you eat the second. I don't think her kicks should be so free considering the crazy damage/KB they deal, not to mention they seem to be meteors as often as not. This is coming from someone who's been on both sides of it. I feel like I can pick up Zelda not having playing her in a long time and still beat good players. I'm no Zalo, but I can get the job done.

I'm sure the response I'll get from Zelda mains will have to do with her being slow, but how many characters does she really have to approach? She does have a projectile of her own, and up B is surprisingly good as an attack. I guess the swordies, Marth in particular, can give her problems, but all she has to do is get him above her and it's game over. Would a slight air speed improvement balance her losing some foot speed? Not a complaint as much as a question. I want to know how people feel about Zelda's aerial prowess.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:00 pm
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sparty88 wrote:
I think the minuscule start up and cool down on Zelda's kicks make her ridiculously difficult to punish with a lot of the cast. It seems like whenever you're looking to punish the first missed kick, you eat the second. I don't think her kicks should be so free considering the crazy damage/KB they deal, not to mention they seem to be meteors as often as not. This is coming from someone who's been on both sides of it. I feel like I can pick up Zelda not having playing her in a long time and still beat good players. I'm no Zalo, but I can get the job done.

I'm sure the response I'll get from Zelda mains will have to do with her being slow, but how many characters does she really have to approach? She does have a projectile of her own, and up B is surprisingly good as an attack. I guess the swordies, Marth in particular, can give her problems, but all she has to do is get him above her and it's game over. Would a slight air speed improvement balance her losing some foot speed? Not a complaint as much as a question. I want to know how people feel about Zelda's aerial prowess.

sweetspot bair is much stronger than knee as well. fair is probably better too. the fact that she probably has 2 of the strongest aerials in the game, and the fact that they're very safe and long ranged seems very strange to me.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:54 pm
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Jammy wrote:
sparty88 wrote:
I think the minuscule start up and cool down on Zelda's kicks make her ridiculously difficult to punish with a lot of the cast. It seems like whenever you're looking to punish the first missed kick, you eat the second. I don't think her kicks should be so free considering the crazy damage/KB they deal, not to mention they seem to be meteors as often as not. This is coming from someone who's been on both sides of it. I feel like I can pick up Zelda not having playing her in a long time and still beat good players. I'm no Zalo, but I can get the job done.

I'm sure the response I'll get from Zelda mains will have to do with her being slow, but how many characters does she really have to approach? She does have a projectile of her own, and up B is surprisingly good as an attack. I guess the swordies, Marth in particular, can give her problems, but all she has to do is get him above her and it's game over. Would a slight air speed improvement balance her losing some foot speed? Not a complaint as much as a question. I want to know how people feel about Zelda's aerial prowess.

sweetspot bair is much stronger than knee as well. fair is probably better too. the fact that she probably has 2 of the strongest aerials in the game, and the fact that they're very safe and long ranged seems very strange to me.

That's how I feel. And it's not like she's short of kill moves. Her uair is also extremely strong/rangy and all of her smash moves kill. She even has a throw kill.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:01 pm
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Jammy wrote:
sweetspot bair is much stronger than knee as well. fair is probably better too. the fact that she probably has 2 of the strongest aerials in the game, and the fact that they're very safe and long ranged seems very strange to me.

Lol have u played against a swordsmen? :P

The only way I can see them nerfing bair is by buffing fair. The idea from a few posts up (Having bair kill at 85% and fair at 90%. Consequently adding/reducing 20% kill power from each kick.) Is the best way I see them rebalancing the character's best attributes. If her lightning kicks got lag/smaller sweetspots I think it would damage the character too much, which would suck because I feel she's so well balanced Imo.

Also from the direct it's cool to see the Nayru's Love & nair getting new particles. Even though she definitely won't get major changes like some of the other characters it'll be cool to see what little changes she'll get to her moveset.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:59 pm
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Her kicks absolutely need either lag, a smaller sweet spot, or power reduction, because the combination right now is free on a vast majority of the cast. Like I said, it's not like she's hard up for kill moves. I honestly can't think of another character who has more off the top of my head.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:27 pm
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sparty88 wrote:
Her kicks absolutely need either lag, a smaller sweet spot, or power reduction, because the combination right now is free on a vast majority of the cast. Like I said, it's not like she's hard up for kill moves. I honestly can't think of another character who has more off the top of my head.

Technically what I suggested is a power nerf. Fair whilst being strengthened would kill at 90% which is fair for a sweetspotted move. And bair killing at 85-90% is totally balanced by me as it stops being too extreme and stops people from being blown away by 65% deaths.

Asking for her kicks to be nerfed in any way is like asking to make her D tier. They don't beed a nerf, just a ko power rebalance. And 85-90% is totally fair ko percents.

Also right now even with her insane bair ko power it's not even like she's top tier or even top 5 imo. All because her lightning kicks are good and give her good matchups against some of the cast isn't a reason to warrant a nerf. I mean like, ZSS's side b outranges a majority of the cast and is amazing at controlling space. Is that getting nerfed anytime soon? No lol. Captain Falcon has combos into knee(even if some are dependent on DI) on a lot of the cast and kills at like 75%. That's awesome, but it doesn't need a nerf.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:48 pm
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Zelda is really good, and a case can definitely be made for top 5.

I think the kicks are fine: if you're going to nerf a character, give them weaknesses unless their strengths are so overpowering that they damage the meta, which Lightning Kicks aren't. Nerfing recovery or some other weakness of Zelda's is better than nerfing her main attribute.

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Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:53 pm
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TheCodeSamurai wrote:
I think the kicks are fine: if you're going to nerf a character, give them weaknesses unless their strengths are so overpowering that they damage the meta, which Lightning Kicks aren't. Nerfing recovery or some other weakness of Zelda's is better than nerfing her main attribute.


IDK, those kicks are pretty good and maybe a little to good. They are super easy to just whip out, super easy to kill with, super fast, and not in any way, shape, or form punishable.

Toning them down a little won't hurt her too much.

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Why should it be better? And who's asking for a huge nerf?
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Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:05 pm
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